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Permlink Replies: 77 - Last Post: Jan 26, 2010 11:00 PM Last Post By: ElvenArcher
Shar M


Posts: 15,914
Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 18, 2010 6:18 PM
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---as to the outcome of the Massachusetts Senate race tomorrow?
Gloria


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Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 18, 2010 8:32 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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I predict that Scott Brown will win.
wanderer


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Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 18, 2010 8:39 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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i think mr brown will win.

and then the senate will be in gridlock all over again and nothing will be done - so the next election - it will be the party of no that gets the blame.

i am so tired of business as usual - what is good for congress and big business and lobbyist - and people be darned.
Shar M


Posts: 15,914
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 18, 2010 8:55 PM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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Do you really think this particular bill is good for the people? I am not opposed to a health care bill but they have rushed this bill through so quickly that none of them know what's really in it.
wanderer


Posts: 5,077
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 18, 2010 9:09 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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i don't recall saying anything about health care - don't put words into people's postings that are not there - congress does little that is for the good of the people - this will be another example. get more republicans in there and they are not going to do any better than they did before or than the democrats did.

gridlock - what is good for them - not us.

we need statemen - people who care for the country and the citizens not politicians who are bought.
Shar M


Posts: 15,914
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 19, 2010 8:01 AM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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I'm sorry; I didn't realize they were working on anything besides health care.

we need statemen - people who care for the country and the citizens not politicians who are bought.

Now that I agree with.

Edited by: Shar M on Jan 19, 2010 9:02 AM
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 18, 2010 10:39 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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If Brown wins, expect the House to pass the Senate version without any changes. Since there will be no changes, the Senate will not have to revote on it. Then over the next few months there will be some modifications to the Senate bill through the budget reconciliation.
ElvenArcher

Posts: 174
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 18, 2010 11:02 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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If Brown wins, we can also expect the Massachusetts government to drag its feet confirming the election, which must happen before the winner of the election takes his or her seat. We know this because they publicly stated they would do so:
http://www.bostonherald.com/business/healthcare/view.bg?articleid=1224249

Gramps--if the House does pass the Senate's version of the bill, then you are correct and this will all be no more than an academic discussion.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 19, 2010 10:15 AM   in response to: ElvenArcher in response to: ElvenArcher
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ElvenArcher wrote:
If Brown wins, we can also expect the Massachusetts government to drag its feet confirming the election, which must happen before the winner of the election takes his or her seat. We know this because they publicly stated they would do so:

Well, in the week since this story was published, the notion that the winner is going to face a stall has pretty much evaporated (unless, of course, you have a race close enough that it merits a recount). And, of course, the notion that Republicans are already complaining about this just a few months after they dragged Al Franken through a six-month legal challenge says all you need to know about their convictions.
Gramps


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Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 19, 2010 10:52 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Simply amazing how Republican short term memory is lacking.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 19, 2010 12:52 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M wrote:I am not opposed to a health care bill but they have rushed this bill through so quickly that none of them know what's really in it.

Really? The health care bills were introduced in the respective bodies a year ago. The House passed its bill two and a half months ago, and the Senate passed its bill six weeks after the House.

The notion that no one knows what in it is a Republican talking point, not reality.
Shar M


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Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 19, 2010 9:20 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Really? All 2000 pages? I have heard Democrats admit they haven't read it.
calan

Posts: 996
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 19, 2010 9:48 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar

The trick is then to be a "holdout." Freebies, bribes, favors, and the like will make you a hero back in your state at the U.S. taxpayers expense. And- they don't even need to read it.

I read that the health care insurers and pharmaceuticals are heavily lobbying the health care legislation and came up with $1M last week in support of Coakley. Too bad, the Massachusetts people could not be bought this time around.
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 19, 2010 9:58 PM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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Historically, Brown's victory is not that unusual. Usually when a seat has been held by someone for a long time, the seat will go to the opposite party once it is open. Brown's victory is not all that surprising. 52% is not a runaway election.

Besides, Brown will have to stand for re-election again in November 2010, if I got my math right. You see, Brown was elected to serve the remaining term of Kennedy's election. Kennedy was going to retire this year anyway. I am thinking that in 10 months Brown may be unseated.

Edited by: Gramps on Jan 19, 2010 8:06 PM
Shar M


Posts: 15,914
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 20, 2010 8:26 AM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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It's my understanding Brown will serve for three years and will then stand for re-election. although Kennedy may have planned to retire, his term was not up.
Gramps


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Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 20, 2010 2:33 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Tell you what, Shar, I will split the difference with you. He will run again in 2012--two and a half years. He will serve till January 2013 unless he is re-elected.

I had forgotten Kennedy had been elected to the Senate in a special election too. I did not realize this until today.
Shar M


Posts: 15,914
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 20, 2010 3:22 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Okay, so I got the cart before the horse. He will stand for re-election is 2012, but he will still serve for three years. Picky, picky.
Gramps


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Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 20, 2010 11:08 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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The better word is precise.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 20, 2010 4:11 PM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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calan wrote:I read that the health care insurers and pharmaceuticals are heavily lobbying the health care legislation and came up with $1M last week in support of Coakley. Too bad, the Massachusetts people could not be bought this time around.

Why would these free market companies support a plan that is going to lead to their destruction? (or maybe that's finally been exposed as the hollow talking point it already was)
calan

Posts: 996
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 20, 2010 10:59 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Why would these free market companies support a plan that is going to lead to their destruction? (or maybe that's finally been exposed as the hollow talking point it already was)

Sean- Do you know why? Or, just asking the question as diversion? It appears as though something that should make sense really doesn't. How about these financial supporters getting favors in return. Isn't this how it usually works?

This was one of many sources available on the last minute fundraiser for Democrat Martha Coakley:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Coakley-in-trouble-Pharma-and-HMO-lobbyists-to-the-rescue-81067542.html
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 21, 2010 8:15 AM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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calan wrote:Sean- Do you know why?

Yes, I know exactly why the insurers and Big Pharma are behind the bill -- it's because it's a huge gift to them. There's no public option, so the government has just given them 30 million new customers.

It's no wonder that health insurance stocks dropped yesterday. Killing this bill would be bad for the big insurers.
calan

Posts: 996
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 21, 2010 8:43 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Sean- You sound as though everything is just collapsing around the bill. Are you in favor of just getting something passed?
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 22, 2010 10:24 PM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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calan wrote:Sean- You sound as though everything is just collapsing around the bill. Are you in favor of just getting something passed?

Passing this bill is better than doing nothing. There's a lot of ways that this bill could have been better, though.

And there are a lot of things this bill is not. A "government takeover" of health care is one of those. This bill is a huge victory for private insurers.
Shar M


Posts: 15,914
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 22, 2010 10:43 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Well, why shouldn't we take our time and do it right? This wasn't going to take effect until when? 2013? Let's do it right. What's the rush? Spend some time getting the prescription drug act right and do this one right, too.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 12:37 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M wrote:Well, why shouldn't we take our time and do it right? This wasn't going to take effect until when? 2013? Let's do it right. What's the rush? Spend some time getting the prescription drug act right and do this one right, too.

Plenty of time has been taken on this issue. It's been 17 years since the last serious attempt at it. Republicans did nothing during their time in charge of Congress and the White House. What possibly is going to be gained by continuing to wait and stall and delay? People have been talking and complaining about the cost, but let's not forget there's a human cost to the problems in our health care system. According to some estimates, 45,000 Americans die each year because they don't have access to health care. How many more people have to die or have their health seriously impacted before it's time to act?

All of the bills that came out of the Democratic committees in the House or Senate moved us substantially closer to universal coverage while being deficit-neutral or better. Let's pass one and get going!
ElvenArcher

Posts: 174
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 1:06 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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I fully admit that I haven't done a lot of study into the current health care bill. My brother has, however, and he told me that this bill looks budget-neutral over a ten year window because we'd start paying for it now, but--as Shar pointed out--wouldn't start to get benefits for four years. It's a lot easier to have a favorable balance sheet when you have ten years of income and only six years of expenses.
ElvenArcher

Posts: 174
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 1:15 AM   in response to: ElvenArcher in response to: ElvenArcher
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I did a quick Google search and found this article about the House's bill. Not sure if this was a source my brother had read or not, but here is the relevant portion:

"Moreover, the CBO provides 10-year projections of a bill's cost, between 2010 and 2019 in this case. Yet, while the taxes and other revenue measures in the bill kick in immediately, most of the spending doesn't take effect until 2014.
So the "10-year" cost projection includes only six years of the bill. Wouldn't it be great if you could count a whole month's income, but only two weeks' expenditures in your household budget?
If we look at the bill more honestly over the first 10 years that the programs are actually in existence, say from 2014 to 2024, it would actually cost nearly $3 trillion."
--http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10969
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 8:31 PM   in response to: ElvenArcher in response to: ElvenArcher
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ElvenArcher wrote:I fully admit that I haven't done a lot of study into the current health care bill. My brother has, however, and he told me that this bill looks budget-neutral over a ten year window because we'd start paying for it now, but--as Shar pointed out--wouldn't start to get benefits for four years. It's a lot easier to have a favorable balance sheet when you have ten years of income and only six years of expenses.

Well, for the House bill that's true -- although it should be pointed out the House bill does even better in the second ten years than the first ten years in the CBO score.

For the Senate bill, it's not true. The Senate bill more closely ties together the payments and the benefits, Many of the benefits of the Senate bill start right away.
evrysoul


Posts: 1,526
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 2:30 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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According to some estimates, 45,000 Americans die each year because they don't have access to health care. How many more people have to die or have their health seriously impacted before it's time to act?

98,000 die from mal-practice. 106,000 from drug reactions, 115,000 from bedsores, 88,000 from infection, 108,000 outpatient surgeries, and 37,000 from unnecessary procedures. And as shocking as it is, people just die. Why don't they have access to healthcare? What hospital refused to treat them??

All of the bills that came out of the Democratic committees in the House or Senate moved us substantially closer to universal coverage while being deficit-neutral or better. Let's pass one and get going!

Deficit neutral??? The House passed the doctor fix separately and added an estimated 210 billion (CBO figures) over 10 years to the deficit. Then they passed on the cost of expanding Medicaid to the states. But since the states are cash poor these days, the states will simply pass it over to some other area or raise taxes. Just because it's not included in the deficit, it doesn't mean that it's absent of cost. There's absolutely nothing "neutral" about it. And they didn't add in administration costs.

Take any gov't figure and multiply it by 10 and that's what the real cost will be.
Gramps


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Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 11:00 AM   in response to: evrysoul in response to: evrysoul
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Often times people with no health insurance don't go into see a doctor or get necessary medications until it is too late. Hospitals should be the last resort in the health care system, not the only resort. I work with two emergency rooms. I can tell you people with no insurance will get only the basic care--make sure they are breathing and not bleeding. Staff does not take the time to really investigate what is going on.

I have a friend who just found out he has late stage cancer. He had no insurance. He said a year ago he had noticed a lump, but since he had no insurance he deferred having it looked at. Finally a couple of us prevailed on him to go in and have it looked at. He found out it was cancerous last week. Now he will have to go through expensive surgery followed by radiation and chemo therapy. He might not be able to work for several months. He cannot pay the bills. It will have to be covered through public funding. But, the deal is, public funding actually pays only 40% of the actual cost. Guess where the other 60% will be coming from (ever wonder why those with private insurance get charged so much?).

This guy is now fighting for his life. He may not make it. Yesterday he and I were talking and he expressed regret for not having a doctor look at the lump shortly after he had noticed it. Had he gone to a doctor then it would have been a simple procedure that could have been handled through day surgery.

This type of story is repeated thousands of times each year.
evrysoul


Posts: 1,526
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 4:37 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Often times people with no health insurance don't go into see a doctor or get necessary medications until it is too late.

I agree that this does happen and we can't force people to take advantage of services offered. But regardless, it is available.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/06/the-real-uninsured/

In short, its true that many of the 45.7 million "uninsured" could find coverage through existing government programs or pay for their own coverage if they chose. Some, perhaps 6 million, are illegal immigrants who would not receive coverage under any proposal now being considered.

I can tell you people with no insurance will get only the basic care--make sure they are breathing and not bleeding. Staff does not take the time to really investigate what is going on.

The staff should not be concerned as to whether the patient has insurance or not, and the Dr. runs the risk of being sued for improper care. Dr's associated with a hospital on average recieve $50,000 reimbursement for treating uninsured patients. So depending where they're at, they could have a little elbow room. And hospitals have the ability to discount a portion of the bill to ease the patients financial burdens if the un-insured are willing/able to make the payments.

I'm sorry for your friend. Wish he'd gone sooner.
MelFamy


Posts: 2,563
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 5:21 PM   in response to: evrysoul in response to: evrysoul
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One of my roommates in the hospital was uninsured. He was visited by a financial counselor, and once he went without food for 30 hours, due to a schedule mix-up on procedure he had to fast for. But otherwise, he was treated just as well as I was. And he was apologized to by everybody involved in the mix-up.
WHether that is typical, I do not know. I hope it is.
evrysoul


Posts: 1,526
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 6:46 PM   in response to: MelFamy in response to: MelFamy
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Poor guy. Everyone should be able to get whatever procedure they need despite of their ability to pay.
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 7:15 PM   in response to: evrysoul in response to: evrysoul
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Pass universal coverage and everyone will be able to have access to medical care.
evrysoul


Posts: 1,526
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 9:13 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Everyone has access now.
Shar M


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Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 7:29 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Often times people with no health insurance don't go into see a doctor or get necessary medications until it is too late.

And a lot of times people with health insurance don't go to see a doctor until it's too late. That's just human nature. I put off hip surgery for two years and it was't about the money at all.
Shar M


Posts: 15,914
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 8:56 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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The majority of Americans and even some of the Democrats in Congress don't think we've done this right. I'd have to agree with them. They rushed to draft this bill and then added additions willy nilly.
Gramps


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Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 11:03 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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I know! We can copy the Canadian Health Care law, change a few words and phrases, and pass it. The Canadian law is only 28 pages long. Even a fifth grader should be able to read that.
Sean


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Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 23, 2010 8:35 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M wrote:The majority of Americans and even some of the Democrats in Congress don't think we've done this right. I'd have to agree with them. They rushed to draft this bill and then added additions willy nilly.

Well, part of the problem with public opinion is the fact that there has been a coordinated effort to lie about what is in the bill. The Congressional Democrats who don't like the bill don't like it because it's been tailored to try and get Republicans to vote for it. And despite all those efforts not a one is on board. The stupid, no backbone Democrats on the Hill have neutered their own bill.

I still don't see how you can possibly claim that this bill has been rushed. If this is "rushed", I'd die of old age before you finished something you were taking your time on...
Shar M


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Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 24, 2010 12:41 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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They haven't rushed to adopt it, but they rushed to draft it and then kept adding to it. Which is partly why it's such a mess. Do it right with both parties participating and come up with something the majority will support.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 24, 2010 10:48 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M wrote:Do it right with both parties participating and come up with something the majority will support.

I guess you must have been asleep all summer, when the Senate ground to a halt waiting for the "Gang of Six" to work out a compromise. Republicans didn't release their own bill until the last week of October.
calan

Posts: 996
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 24, 2010 8:15 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Sean,

Lies?

So the campaign promises from your leader(s) were really just false promises hoping to fool the average American voter into believing there would be transparency from this administration. During the campaign, we heard bi-partisan too many times to count. If this is group is so transparent, why couldn't CSPAN get President Obama to follow through with his campaign promise to make health care meetings public?

I think the bill is due to die of old age before any of us. It must be so badly written because the Dems control the votes needed to pass it. The Republicans have nothing to do with its failing. The American people might though.
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 24, 2010 8:39 PM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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Could it be because he is not controlling those meetings? While he may have promised transparency, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid did not.

But a campaign promise he was not able to keep is vastly different from these lies:

Lie #1: President Obama wants to euthanize your grandma!!!


Lie #2: Democrats are going to outlaw private insurance and force you into a government plan!!!


Lie #3: President Obama wants to implement Soviet-style rationing!!!


Lie #4: Obama is secretly plotting to cut senior citizens' Medicare benefits!!!


Lie #5: Obama's health care plan will bankrupt America!!!

Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 24, 2010 10:50 PM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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calan wrote: So the campaign promises from your leader(s) were really just false promises hoping to fool the average American voter into believing there would be transparency from this administration. During the campaign, we heard bi-partisan too many times to count. If this is group is so transparent, why couldn't CSPAN get President Obama to follow through with his campaign promise to make health care meetings public?

I'm not defending the transparency of the process. The process has been an absolute mess, and President Obama has completely abdicated his campaign promises on the transparency issue.
PhilCollins

Posts: 302
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 25, 2010 3:15 PM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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I hope that the bill will died because it violates the 10th Amendment.
wanderer


Posts: 5,077
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 21, 2010 8:23 AM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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can someone explain the meaning of the word OPINION in that address?

anyone know how long it takes for contributions to show up at open secrets? none of this is on that site yet - at least i can not find it.
calan

Posts: 996
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 21, 2010 8:35 PM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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Wanderer-

You're funny. I specifically said in the previous post, "This was one of many sources available on the last minute fundraiser for Democrat Martha Coakley:"

Instead of discusssing the topic of health care special interest financially supporting the Democratic candidate, you find issue only with the choice of links. I do not want to insult you on easy doing a search on this dinner (fundraiser) is. Are you in denial of this information being true?

wanderer


Posts: 5,077
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 22, 2010 9:31 AM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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ah, shucks - someone has to provide some entertainment here. someone has to provide the laffs.

i just couldn't find that info at any other source - everytime i put it into google - that same source popped up. huffington post, ruby red slippers, smart girls politics - all sent me to that very same article. would like more info and couldn't find it. having spent most of my life in research - i have a tendancy to want more sources.

open secrets hasn't been updated since the end of the year.

yet if i understand the court ruling yesterday - this issue will be small potatoes compared to what we are in for.
calan

Posts: 996
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 22, 2010 7:58 PM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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Haha, open secrets??? I originally thought at my young age I was having a "golden moment." I've never heard of a site by this name.

I usually use yahoo for its search engine. It is good to look for info beyond the main media controllers.
wanderer


Posts: 5,077
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 22, 2010 8:28 PM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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http://www.opensecrets.org/

first site that popped up at yahoo search when the search words were OPEN SECRETS

i guess they are rather new at the game - only been around about 25 years.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 20, 2010 4:09 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M wrote:Really? All 2000 pages? I have heard Democrats admit they haven't read it.

You don't need to read the whole bill to know what is in it. Unless you expect the entire Congress to made up of lawyers, it's pointless for everyone to read every line of text of every bill.
ElvenArcher

Posts: 174
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 20, 2010 4:37 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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I disagree. If one does not closely read a bill, there can be consequences associated with it that he or she does not realize are there. I agree it would be impractical for every congressman to read all of every bill, but ideally at least one person on each congressman's staff should do so, and do it well.

My favorite example of what happens when you don't closely read a bill is the evolution of gambling in Mississippi. Lawmakers passed a bill with the intent of allowing gambling on quaint riverboats. Tourists and locals alike could leisurely cruise up and down the Mississippi on an old paddle boat and play poker, blackjack, what have you.

After the bill was passed, a closer reading revealed that the boat didn't in fact have to move. It could stay docked, and didn't even need to have a motor to be capable of movement.

Then people realized that the casino didn't even have to be a boat, it could be any structure that touched the water.

And eventually, folks figured out that the law, as it was written, didn't even require the casino to touch the water. A casino could be opened anywhere in the state. Not exactly what the original lawmakers intended.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 20, 2010 4:56 PM   in response to: ElvenArcher in response to: ElvenArcher
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ElvenArcher wrote:I agree it would be impractical for every congressman to read all of every bill, but ideally at least one person on each congressman's staff should do so, and do it well.

I would agree with this sentiment.
Mary0


Posts: 517
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 22, 2010 9:20 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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I believe the Senate and House members should read all of the bills. We were taught at home and at the schools we attended to always read completely whatever you sign. I instructed my own kids the same way. Congressmen who want the job need to do the job, which includes reading what they are voting on. They get rewarded well for what they are doing, good pensions and health insurance. If they can't or don't want to read it, they can get another job.

I just read the following. I had looked this up because I had gotten confused about Scott Brown being pro life because of something I had heard on tv. What I heard I think may have been a misspeak but I then found this.

http://www.lifenews.com/state4738.html

A new low in politics. We are used to the all of the lying ads but pretending to be from an organization you are not?

PhilCollins

Posts: 302
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 19, 2010 11:12 AM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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I predict that Brown will get 52% of the vote.
opto86

Posts: 772
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 19, 2010 11:47 AM   in response to: PhilCollins in response to: PhilCollins
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Let's hope your right.

Its has been one year since Rush Limbaugh stated "lets hope he fails".

The people of Massachusetts understand this today with their referendum on Obama's policies (his personal involvement was a detriment).

They also understand their state's health care provides less benefit with higher cost and would be similar on a national scale.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 19, 2010 12:27 PM   in response to: opto86 in response to: opto86
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opto86 wrote:They also understand their state's health care provides less benefit with higher cost and would be similar on a national scale.

Then why does Scott Brown oppose repealing the Romney health care reform?
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 20, 2010 6:54 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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From the reports of the exit polling and reports of Brown's interviews, it sounds like he is not totally against Universal Health Care Coverage. He just thinks it should be up to the states to design their own plans. He reminded people today that he voted FOR Romney's Universal Health Care Plan.

Also, the the majority of the voters in MA like their universal plan. Most were in favor of the House of Representative Bill. They said they were voting more against the Senate bill.

Brown is certainly sounding like more an independent than a Republican. Too bad he will have to run again in two years. He is certainly beholding to the money the Republican party poured into his campaign. Since he has to do it again in two years, he certainly won't want to bite the hand that is feeding him.

Here is an interesting senerio: Brown teams up with Jim Webb and they come up with a compromise health care plan. Then, if the Republican party threatens to pull the plug for financing the Democrats pick him up for 2012..

Hey, stranger things have happened in the political swamp.
Shar M


Posts: 15,914
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 20, 2010 6:56 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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That's not an interesting scenario, that's a dream.
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 20, 2010 8:00 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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It's not as strange as you may think, Shar. I note nowhere in Brown's ads or commercials did you see anything mentioning he was a member of the Republican party. He avoided the term as much as possible. It was not until Corckley made a issue of it did he fess up.

I also note when asked on the Today show this morning what the first thing he said he was going to do when he got to Washington he said he would take time to meet with all the Democrats and Republicans (his word order). He seems to be setting down and independent path.
MelFamy


Posts: 2,563
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 20, 2010 3:14 AM   in response to: PhilCollins in response to: PhilCollins
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Good call, Phil.
spartan1

Posts: 64
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 19, 2010 1:27 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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From the weather report, which indicates snow, I would predict a Republican victory. Bad weather favors Republicans.
calan

Posts: 996
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 19, 2010 7:55 PM   in response to: spartan1 in response to: spartan1
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That being said, the state of Michigan could use an early November blizzard in 2010!
spartan1

Posts: 64
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 20, 2010 7:11 AM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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But that would be contrary to gloal warming.
calan

Posts: 996
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 21, 2010 8:39 PM   in response to: spartan1 in response to: spartan1
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As it stands now, many of the road commissions are nearly broke. Hey, maybe.....
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 25, 2010 5:03 PM   in response to: spartan1 in response to: spartan1
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Roads being clogged by snow has nothing to do with global warming. You are talking about only 2% of the world's land mass that is having cold weather--the other 98% are having average to way above average temperatures.

The 1990's has gone down as having the warmest temperatures on record.

Parts of South America, well known for its rain forests, are experiencing the worst droughts on record. Snow in the Himalayas is disappearing, threatening the Indian Sub Continent.
Shar M


Posts: 15,914
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 25, 2010 9:52 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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You are talking about only 2% of the world's land mass that is having cold weather--the other 98% are having average to way above average temperatures.

Show me any reliable evidence of that, gramps.
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 25, 2010 11:00 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Ah, the conundrum, what I consider reliable you reject, what you consider reliable, I reject.

I can give you specific examples:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/6131513/Global-warming-has-reversed-2000-years-of-cooling-in-the-Arctic.html

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/03/05/amazon-drought-climate.html

But, of course, you will reject this.
MelFamy


Posts: 2,563
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 26, 2010 3:35 AM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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'The truth has a Liberal bias.' - Stephen Colbert
Shar M


Posts: 15,914
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 26, 2010 7:53 AM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Note the dates on those articles, gramps. One almost a year ago and one in September. Long before this current cold spell. Neither say anything about the majority of the world currently experiencing warmer than usual temperatures.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 26, 2010 8:26 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Even if this winter is a cold winter, or this year a cold year, the long-term trend is still evident.

Pointing to individual weather events (on either side of the debate) is pointless. You have to look at the trends.

Claiming that a cold winter means global warming isn't happening is like claiming 2008 was a good year for the stock market because the best day in the market's history occured in that year.
PhilCollins

Posts: 302
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 26, 2010 3:07 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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I heard that some scientists say that we have global cooling. Other scientists say that, if we have global warming, it's part of a cycle that has happened every 300-500 years, for at least the past 3,000 years. Therefore, the warming couldn't have been caused by pollution that is caused by cars, trucks, or factories.
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 26, 2010 3:24 PM   in response to: PhilCollins in response to: PhilCollins
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Which is what scientists who are being paid off by oil/coal companies would have you to believe. Remember when cigarette companies paid off scientists to say smoking is not harmful?

No, you believe what you want to believe. The preponderance of the evidence was enough to make the Supreme Court order the EPA to regulate CO2 emissions.
ElvenArcher

Posts: 174
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 26, 2010 8:51 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Everyone is paid by someone.

Interesting that, so far as I know, most if not all federal grants on this subject are to research the problems of global warming, not to research whether global warming is a problem.
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 26, 2010 9:27 PM   in response to: ElvenArcher in response to: ElvenArcher
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Bush proposed that. And he found out there is a problem. By the end of the Bush administration he certainly was sounding green.
ElvenArcher

Posts: 174
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 26, 2010 11:00 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Really? I don't recall that, but it could be that I'm mistaken.

Scientists want funding. In order to keep funding coming in, you have to show progress in your work. If you're getting paid to study what problems might result from global warming, there's an inherant bias to hedge your results in that direction. I used to do research in an unrelated field. Trust me, if you're getting paid to study how good a new development in Phenomenon A is, it's a lot easier to hedge and say "My findings could indicate a slight performance enhancement" than it is to say "Actually, my results aren't conclusive as to whether or not this thing works at all". Which conclusion is more likely to get your grant renewed?
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 26, 2010 9:42 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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The drought in the Amazon still continues. Venezuela (not in the Amazon basin, true) is experiencing its worse drought ever. One of its largest hydroelectric dams is practically dry. The overall trends show continual warming.

Of course, you will reject the latest NASA summery too: http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/temp-analysis-2009.html (It offers an explanation of why the eastern part of the US has experienced a cooler than normal winter this year too.
MelFamy


Posts: 2,563
Re: Any predictions......
Posted: Jan 26, 2010 1:37 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Thanks for posting that link, Gramps. The article validates what I was saying on here a few months ago, about polar air moving southbound faster than usual being the reason for the colder weather.