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Permlink Replies: 147 - Last Post: Feb 2, 2012 7:55 PM Last Post By: jwalker1166
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 20, 2012 12:24 PM
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From Fact Check:

Misleading Claims in Obama¿s First 2012 Spot

Dissembling on ethics, jobs and oil imports

January 20, 2012

Summary
President Obama¿s first 2012 campaign ad misleads on ethics, ¿clean-energy¿ jobs and U.S. dependence on oil imports.

The spot uses outdated quotes from groups that said his record on ethics is ¿unprecedented¿ and that he ¿kept a promise to toughen ethics rules.¿ Those same groups said later that he ¿has let down millions of Americans who accepted his word¿ and rated his promise as ¿broken.¿

The 30-second TV spot also trumpets a claim of ¿2.7 million jobs¿ in ¿America¿s clean-energy industry.¿ That mostly counts jobs put in place long before Obama took office.

Finally, it boasts that U.S. dependence on foreign oil has declined to below 50 percent, as a net share of total demand, for the first time in more than a decade. That¿s true, and increasing U.S. oil production is a factor (despite Republican criticisms that Obama is anti-drilling). But economists say the chief factor is reduced oil consumption, brought on by the recent economic recession.

Apparently he doesn't give us credit for being smart enough to figure that out.

calan

Posts: 996
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 20, 2012 7:12 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Short term memory lapse here uh? Or was that mic check? Don't forget that transparency promise!
Boydene2

Posts: 1
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 10:31 AM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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well heeled, wealthy folks have bought our government. we can fix these problems if campaign finance laws are changed,e.g. " I refuse to believe that corporations are people until Texas executes one"!
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 20, 2012 8:38 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Again, what is the address of where you got this from ?
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 20, 2012 8:43 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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It is www.factcheck.org. I'm surprised you don't know about it. Harriet quoted it frequently last year and a number of people on the board subscribe to it. It is a well known web site.

From their web site:

Our Mission

We are a nonpartisan, nonprofit ¿consumer advocate¿ for voters that aims to reduce the level of deception and confusion in U.S. politics. We monitor the factual accuracy of what is said by major U.S. political players in the form of TV ads, debates, speeches, interviews and news releases. Our goal is to apply the best practices of both journalism and scholarship, and to increase public knowledge and understanding.

FactCheck.org is a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania. The APPC was established by publisher and philanthropist Walter Annenberg to create a community of scholars within the University of Pennsylvania that would address public policy issues at the local, state and federal levels.

The ad is currently running on television.
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 20, 2012 10:22 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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You could have put a link to the full report. http://factcheck.org/2012/01/misleading-claims-in-obamas-first-2012-spot/

How about those Republicans? Will Romney release his income tax? Did Gringrich ask for an open fmarriage? Will Santorum ban all forms of contraception, including the rubber? Dos Paul know what he is talking about when he wants to bring all the troops home (actually am in favor of that)?

Oh, and congratulations to Rick's win in Iowa.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 20, 2012 10:50 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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It was the headline report so the address I gave would get you to it.

Can't tell you about Newt and Milt, gramps, but I'm pretty sure the president doesn't have the authority to ban anything so I don't think you need to worry about Rick. He may favor it but no way he'd find support for it.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 21, 2012 7:11 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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I checked it out and you're right. I sure wish he wouldn't do this kind of thing.
He really doesn't need to.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 21, 2012 7:43 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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There are many of us who think he can't possibly run on his record, for reasons that I don't need to state.
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 21, 2012 10:42 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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He saved the auto industry

He got Bin Laden

He saw the overthrow of several dictators without loss of any American lives

He got us out of Iraq--even with a surge.

He is in the process of getting us out of Afghanistan

He was able to allow young adults stay on their parents health insurance until they are 25.

No one can be denied insurance because of preconditions (beginning next year).

The unemployment rate is beginning to go down (no thanks to the Republicans)

Most of the TARP money has been paid back.

Oh I would say he has a solid record to run on (compared to the last guy).
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 22, 2012 6:47 AM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Amen to that Gramps and you can add, with no help from the Republicans to every move he's made.

They have been obstructionist thru his whole Presidenency. They still are . Those who have been in referendums so far are looking for the guy best able to beat Obama, not someone who can run the country well. To the point they are considering the guy who was speaker and lost his job due to financial chicanery.
Now I'm all for and believe in forgiveness and redemption which he claims he gained thru his third wife { who he was cheating on his second wife with.}, But I have to wonder if this is the case with Newt or if he is exhibiting a life pattern .

It seems those voting for him are voting for his style, rather then the content of what he says. He can be more bombastic then anyone else also running.
He's the epitome of a lose cannon when he speaks.

No thanks, thus far , I can't see where any of them hoping to be President of the U.S. compare with the President we now have, with all of his faults.

Lets also remember, whoever runs for President doesn't really have a clue as to what he will be faced with should he win.
It's a "learning on the job" condition.

I'm sticking with Obama unless he does something really worse then any of them running.
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 22, 2012 9:59 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Newt says he is a changed man, but is patterns belie him. He is very narcissistic. I find it scandalous that he chose to leave his first wife after she developed cancer. He left his second wife after she developed MS. Will he leave his third wife after she proves imperfect--developing a chronic illness (If I were a betting man, I would put down 2:1 odds, at least). I think it also says something about his attitude towards health care.

I think Florida will be a tougher sell for him.

I say let let the Republicans continue to dig their own holes. I divided GOP will never win the presidential election.

By the way. Do you know the difference between Mitt Romney and a statue? The statue will never change it's position.
jwalker1166

Posts: 532
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 22, 2012 11:53 AM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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If you push the statue over it will. Face first is a good position to start with. If you can't change your mind from time to time how can you grow.
But every few minutes and in the middle of a sentence indicates something what could it be.???
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 22, 2012 11:22 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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If you feel that the lives of most Americans have been better with Obama as president, then by all means, vote for him.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 22, 2012 11:56 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Yes, I think we have been better off with Obama and will be in the future compared to what the Reps. are offering.

Gramps didn't mention the people Obama stared down in order to preserve peace. He also got a number of nations to agree with him about the Iran embargo. That ain't chopped chicken liver.

Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 22, 2012 2:04 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Okay, so your decision is easy.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 6:35 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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So is yours. If you can overcome some of your----oh well.

By the way, during the 2008 election, some outfit looked into lies and exaggerations make by the parties. While both do it, Republicans were waaaayyyyyy ahead of Democrats in that weakness.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 6:42 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Another by the way.

I do not like fish as a rule.
I had a fish sandwich made by McDonalds. Even the batter was good and not mostly batter. I had even asked for a knife to peel it off but it wasn't that thick. Oh, I asked them to leave the ghetto cheese off.

Does anyone know how much cholestrel in McDonalds delicious fish sandwich ?

I also have one of those boxers indoor grills. I found I can abide fish when cooked on that thing. Unfortunately, my last move, it was the only thing I dropped and broke a little. It still works mostly.
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 8:34 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Would you be good enough to enlighten me as to the definition of "ghetto cheese"?
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 8:51 AM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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It's that cheese that comes in a long box. Kraft is one of the distributors

There is so much of it that at one time they were storing it in caves. Then, at one time they were giving it away. My father in law had some coupons for it and gave us a load. It's that soft melty stuff.
perelandra


Posts: 3,193
Ghetto cheese?!
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 5:08 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Turtle, waaay back when I was in college, I made the mistake of calling a boom box a "ghetto blaster" in front of a black student, and did I ever get the business for it! He informed me (correctly) that such music players are listened to by white people, too, so assigning it the term "ghetto" was incorrect. I was totally mortified, since I came from a small town and had never heard the player called anything else but "ghetto blaster." You can bet I learned better after that encounter. Oh, and it had a happy ending: the guy later apologized for flying off the handle, and I in turn apologized for my unknowing offense. :)
The "cheese" of which you speak is properly known as "pasteurized processed cheese food product." It's the cheapest stuff on the market, and for good reason--I suspect that "processed" and "product" are the only words in that description that are true. Also included in this family of "food" are Velveeta and that runny thick stuff they put on nachos at ball games (hint: adding jalapenos makes that runny stuff taste like real cheese!).
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Ghetto cheese?!
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 5:53 PM   in response to: perelandra in response to: perelandra
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We always refer to it as "mystery cheese." You are correct, pere, there's no cheese in it. I suspect it's probably one of those products that has petroleum in it.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 8:46 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Oh, my decision is also easy. But it will not be Obama. I'm not as easily pleased as you.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 8:58 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Do you think those running will be able to live up to all their lies ?

I doubt it.

The smartest one was Christy. He said he wasn't ready. That man seems to know the terrible responsibility being the Pres. of the U.S. involves. He probably also is aware of the toll it takes on the family to just run for the office.
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 9:37 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Chris Christie does not play well with others; however, if anyone is interested in the top 1% evading their fair share of taxes, then he is the perfect candidate. Many in NJ were hoping he would put his tent up in DC and were disappointed that he didn't. Perhaps, Mary Pat's (wife) Senior VP job at Canter Fitzgerald ( the investment firm that lost more than 85% of its staff on 9-11) has something to do with that decision. But many of us just believe that he hasn't made enough of a name for himself and to respond to outside calls for his candidacy is giving too much control to others.

Be careful what you ask for. You also got former Gov. Christine Todd Whitman as chief of the federal EPA. She told the first responders at the twin towers that they had nothing to worry about concerning the quality of the air at the site. And how many have died painful deaths as a result?

And since I am on a roll, I thought your explanation about the cheese was what you said. This WAS NOT GHETTO cheese. It was surplus cheese and distributed by the US Department of Agriculture through social service agencies to (in my state) senior citizens whom had to be certified as needy. It was not Velveeta. Nobel idea, but there was not enough accumulated intelligence to realize that most seniors were on a sodium restricted diet. In this area, most of it was returned to the USDA.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 1:27 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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That's O.K. Just remember, there was only one perfect person.
SereneMaxine


Posts: 2,190
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 28, 2012 11:35 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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I can't agree with you more, Shar. I won't be voting for Obama...never did and never will.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 29, 2012 11:28 AM   in response to: SereneMaxine in response to: SereneMaxine
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You and lots of others, Max. And some of them voted for him the first time.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 22, 2012 11:20 AM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Then he won't need to exaggerate, will he, gramps?
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 22, 2012 5:19 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Advertizing always involves exaggeration. Those Arby sandwiches sure look good on TV. Not so good in reality. But I think he does have a record he can run on.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 22, 2012 7:28 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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I guess the voters will tell us what they think soon enough.

And I love Arby's sandwiches. They're not as good as they were originally when they had a whole piece of beef in the rotisserie but they had too many problems and changed it. I think it beats a lot of the fast food these days.
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 22, 2012 11:38 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Hey, I am not knocking Arby's sandwiches. Just pointing out they are a little exaggerated in the commercials. McDonald's does it too. Subway also. DQ likewise, As Anne points out the trick is to push the envelope without going over the line.

Ever wonder how Chevy got that neat commercial of a 64 convertible on Castle Rock in Utah? They sure didn't drive it up there. But it is a great example of an exaggeration. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0QcyQ4K3po
wanderer


Posts: 5,069
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 22, 2012 8:37 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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many years ago a friend who was a school teacher had her students do a project on advertising. one subject was McDonald's cherry pie. the picture on the box just oozed with cherries - yet when the pie was open - the students found lots of juice or cherry "gel" but very very few actual cherries. nothing like on the photo.

so they wrote to mcdonalds. their reply? well, there are stems and leaves in the picture too, and you wouldn't expect to see them in the pie.

is it an exaggeration when they show something but don't claim it is actually there? that is what mcdonald's did, and that is what politicians do. i don't think they actually say - I did this, and i did that, they show the item and expect you to make the connection - then back off when the result is incorrect. i don't think obama's ad says he did these things - but leaves you to make the connection. although i have only seen the ad once. not interested in ads on tv.

truth in advertising doesn't exist - whether you are republican, democrat, alberta oil companies or mcdonalds. so why be surprized? i am not.
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 22, 2012 9:07 PM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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Truth as well as reality is in the eyes of the beholder...

One of my past occupations was in advertising/marketing, the masters of illusion. The trick is to step right up to the line, but not cross over, so the competition flounders over a counter ad. The goal is to instill in the consumer the desire for/motivation to purchase whatever is being hawked for market share. It always comes down to power and numbers (read $s). In politics, it is votes, which in turn leads to $s.

Can't help but wonder if the "cherry" filling actually has any fruit in it! Also wonder if the old phrase "that sounds fruity" stemmed from (sorry, I couldn't resist).
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 3:10 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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I'm not asking for Christy, just thought he was one who at least made some sense and showed it by stating "I am not ready". I would have to know more about him if he did run but off the cuff I doubt I'd vote for him.

About Ghetto Cheese:
Seems we're both part right or both part wrong {depends on if you're an optimist or pessimist}

ghetto-cheese according to Ghetto Dictionary:
big block of thick, uncut American cheese issued by the government to people on welfare. It is the best cheese for makin macaroni and cheese yo
this ghetto-cheese is mm mmm good!
buy ghetto-cheese mugs & shirts
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 3:20 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Although he is not my first choice, Newt certainly does not lack for brains. He is a brilliant man. I would like to see him and Obama in a debate. If he is the candidate, I think it's likely Obama will refuse to debate him. He will definately be at a loss.
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 4:14 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M wrote:Although he is not my first choice, Newt certainly does not lack for brains. He is a brilliant man. I would like to see him and Obama in a debate. If he is the candidate, I think it's likely Obama will refuse to debate him. He will definately be at a loss.

I don't think so. All of Gingrich's memorable moments from the debates this year have been when he challenges the moderators. When he goes toe-to-toe with the other candidates, he doesn't fare as well. Santorum, in particular, was very effective against Gingrich's issue positions in the last debate. Gingrich has also proven to be less than a deep thinker on foreign affairs in this campaign.

Of course, Republican primary voters seem to be more energized by Gingrich's media attacks than by coherent issue positions. Obama will have no problem dealing with Gingrich in the fall, should it come to that. (Have you seen how Gingrich polls with independents? Hint: lousy! The last Fox News Poll had him at 56% unfavorable.)
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 4:37 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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I think you have missed some of the debates, Sean. Newt does very well against anyone but particularly the moderators because they anger him. Obama will certainly anger him. Obama is tethered to the telepromptor. Newt does very well off the cuff without following a prepared speech. John King looked like he was almost in tears the other evening. And Newt is every bit as bright as the president.
Smiley1965


Posts: 8,221
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 4:51 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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I thought his answer to the opening question the other night was fabulous and right on.
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 9:20 AM   in response to: Smiley1965 in response to: Smiley1965
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Smiley1965 wrote: I thought his answer to the opening question the other night was fabulous and right on.

As it turns out, it was also a lie!

After nearly a week on the defensive, CNN's John King reports tonight that Newt Gingrich's claim about offering witnesses to ABC News in his defense ¿ to rebut the network's interview with his second wife, Marianne Gingrich ¿ was not true.

"Tonight, after persistent questioning by our staff, the Gingrich campaign concedes now Speaker Gingrich was wrong ¿ both in his debate answer, and in our interview yesterday," King said on tonight's edition of John King USA. "Gingrich spokesman R.C. Hammond says the only people the Gingrich campaign offered to ABC were his two daughters from his first marriage."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2012/01/gingrich-admits-abc-claim-was-false-112344.html

Edited by: Sean on Jan 26, 2012 9:44 AM
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 4:54 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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John King asked a valid question since Newt brought up his "seeing the light " with his new---est wife. Rather then answer the question, he turned on King and the Popular Press. He made himself the victim . Neat trick.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 7:04 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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A valid question? With all of the really important issues this country is facing? Give me a break.

ABC obviously thought their release of this interview would hurt Gingrich. They were obviously wrong as it appears it helped him. Wonder if they're sorry they engaged in such sleazy journalism.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 10:47 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Apparently Newt thinks his personal history is valid or he wouldn't have thrust it before the public {only in part and with a lot of smoothing over} in the first place.

With all the problems this country is facing, non of the Republican debates cover them. They have ended up being attacks on each other.
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 8:32 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M wrote:A valid question? With all of the really important issues this country is facing? Give me a break.

Right. So the media should have just ignored the story that was dominating the news cycle for the last 24 hours? Especially when the politician involved had previously tried to impeach the President over allegations of lying about marital infidelity.

You're laying on the manufactured outrage almost as thick as Newt, Shar.
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 8:03 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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He would have to be to have a marriage and a mistress concurrently, not once but twice; - perhaps three times? I really don't care how intelligent he is; he is an adulterer which speaks (not well) to his character. Then there is the $300,000 fine imposed on him by the Republican Congress for ethics violations. Guess he wasn't smart enough to know what was ethical or not...and if he solicited advice, he certainly didn't follow it.

Personally, I would prefer to have someone in the office of President who is already receiving Federal benefits, unless double dipping is allowed. Since I don't trust any of them, who knows. I'm rather tired of all the money that is spent on two congressional offices - one is Washington and the other in the district served, plus the staff, and the mailings touting all the alleged accomplishments, the health club membership, and on and on.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 8:44 PM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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Double post.

Edited by: Shar M on Jan 23, 2012 9:48 PM
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 8:48 PM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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I agree that Gingrich's moral character leaves much to be desired. He claims he is a changed man. I guess we'll see. But, Annie, you are conveniently forgetting that Newt was eventually cleared on the ethics charges after he paid the fine. But maybe that didn't get nearly as much media coverage as the charges themselves did.
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 9:43 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Once again, Shar, you are telling half truths. Think about what you posted. Why would anyone pay a fine if charges were dropped? No one does that.

Eighty-four ethics charges were filed against Gingrich during his term as Speaker, all but one of which were eventually dropped. After an extensive investigation and negotiation by the House Ethics Committee, Gingrich was reprimanded and fined $300,000 by a 395¿28 House vote. It was the first time in the history of the House that a speaker was disciplined for an ethics violation.

The last three charges were dropped because although it was found that he had violated a House rule in the past, there was no evidence that Gingrich was still violating it at the time of the investigation. The one charge not dropped was a charge of claiming tax-exempt status for a college course run for political purposes. In addition, the House Ethics Committee concluded that inaccurate information supplied to investigators represented "intentional or ... reckless" disregard of House rules.[

The Ethics Committee's Special Counsel, James M. Cole, concluded that Gingrich had violated federal tax law and had lied to the ethics panel in an effort to force the committee to dismiss the complaint against him. The full committee panel did not agree whether tax law had been violated and left that issue up to the IRS. In 1999, the IRS cleared the organizations connected with the "Renewing American Civilization" courses under investigation for possible tax violations.

In January 1997, Gingrich said "I did not manage the effort intensely enough to thoroughly direct or review information being submitted to the committee on my behalf. In my name and over my signature, inaccurate, incomplete and unreliable statements were given to the committee, but I did not intend to mislead the committee." B\ut he also apologized, saying "I brought down on the people's house a controversy which could weaken the faith people have in their government."[
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 23, 2012 10:22 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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The charges were dropped after he paid the fine, gramps. I don't have time to look for it tonight but I'll find it for you tomorrow.
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 8:26 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M wrote:The charges were dropped after he paid the fine, gramps. I don't have time to look for it tonight but I'll find it for you tomorrow.

All but one of the charges was dropped. Some were dropped, though, because the violations took place before Gingrich was elected Speaker and the ethics investigation only covered his Speakership.
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 9:37 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Once again, shar proves she is not willing to admit she is wrong. He paid the fine which resulted from the one charge that was NOT dropped.

But, lets also not forget the conservatives of house tried to oust him as Speaker a year before he resigned. He eventually resigned after the Republicans lost five seats--they still had the majority of the house, but by then all the Republicans were in open rebellion. Newt resigned and left office.

Now, I ask, what does this say about his leadership style? Will he quit if and when he loses control of the whole congress if he is elected president.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 3:34 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Gramps, all of the articles I have read make it very clear the $300,000 was not a fine but the cost of the investigation which Newt paid willingly. Now I am not a fan of Newt Gingrich. But I think there are a lot of mistruths going on about him on this board.
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 10:29 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M wrote: all of the articles I have read make it very clear the $300,000 was not a fine but the cost of the investigation which Newt paid willingly.

From your link:

Gingrich is paying $300,000 for the costs of an ethics committee investigation after admitting last year he made inaccurate statements during a lengthy probe into Democratic allegations that he misused tax-exempt donations. Gingrich denied the charges but submitted to a reprimand by the House.

You don't pay the cost of the investigation if you didn't do anything wrong, Shar.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 11:28 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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He didn't deny doing wrong. He admitted it and paid for the cost of the investigation.
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 11:32 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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The dictionary says a fine is: "a sum of money imposed as a penalty for an offense or dereliction". Gingrich's $300,000 payment is, therefore, a fine. He admitted wrong-doing and paid a sum of money.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 3:30 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Gramps is correct. All of the charges but one were dropped. The $300,000 is referred to in several places as a penalty or payment of the cost of the investigation. The charges were also dropped by the IRS. The Ethics Committee spent a lot of time investigating and disparaging Newt over what turned out to be bogus charges.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/govt/leadership/stories/101198.htm

This article from Politco is also interesting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/govt/leadership/stories/101198.htm

Edited by: Shar M on Jan 24, 2012 4:31 PM
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 3:34 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M wrote: The Ethics Committee spent a lot of time investigating and disparaging Newt over what turned out to be bogus charges.

No, they weren't bogus charges. From your link:

The ethics panel decided to take no further action because there is no evidence that "Rule 45" violations are continuing in the speaker's office, a post Gingrich has held since 1995. Consultant Jeffrey Eisenach's work took place while Gingrich was the GOP minority whip in 1990-91.

The ethics violations took place BEFORE Gingrich was Speaker, and the ethics complaint was only related to Gingrich's time as Speaker. A rough analogy would be to say the statute of limitations ran out on these claims.

That said, most of Romney's charges against Gingrich on this issue are a bunch of bunk. The reports on the investigation are all public, so it's not as if Gingrich is hiding anything here.

Edited by: Sean on Jan 24, 2012 3:35 PM
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 3:51 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Sean, there are all kinds of articles out there that show the charges were politically motivated and dropped because they were completely without merit. Now the liberals on this board will continue believing whatever they wish to believe and disparage him, for cryin' out loud, because he shops at Tiffany. How totally ludicrous.

Newt is far from a perfect individual and I choose not to vote for him because of his moral standards. He came out against Clinton when he was guilty of himself of having an affair. He claims he has turned to God and has seen the error of his ways. That's up to God to judge.

That said, I still think he would tear Obama up in any debate. I have seen Obama speak frequently and it is no secret he does not do particularly well without his teleprompter.

That said, I am finished talking about Newt.
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 4:18 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M wrote: Sean, there are all kinds of articles out there that show the charges were politically motivated and dropped because they were completely without merit.

Your own link disputes that, Shar.

Newt Gingrich, the victim of politically motivated charges? That's like the pot calling the kettle black, Shar. You are familiar with the long line of bodies Gingrich has left in his wake during his political career, aren't you?

Now the liberals on this board will continue believing whatever they wish to believe and disparage him, for cryin' out loud, because he shops at Tiffany. How totally ludicrous.

That's not the reason and you know it. Heck, I've shopped at Tiffany. The issue is that Gingrich (and/or his wife) have revealed on his financial disclosure forms going back to 2005 that they owed between $250,000 and $500,000 to Tiffany. All while claiming on the campaign trail to be a "fiscal conservative" and "frugal". I think it's fair to look at a multi-year history of millions of dollars in jewelry purchases (Tiffany indicated that the Gingriches had a "Time Account" which means that purchases had to be paid off within 12 months, meaning that in order to have this debt for a period of several years, they continued to make at least $250K in purchases on a yearly basis).

Is it the most critical issue? Certainly not. But welcome to American politics in the 21st century -- it's a sad and depressing place. Republicans don't just sit around and issue white papers about what Obama does -- they complain about Obama doing his NCAA Bracket on ESPN or "57 states" or analyze if he's lying about still smoking or not -- again, not exactly world-stopping issues.

Edited by: Sean on Jan 24, 2012 4:18 PM
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 6:04 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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I'm trying to grasp why use of a teleprompter is such a big deal .

Almost everyone who speaks in public uses a telepromter. News people use teleprompters. Some still use written notes. A carefully crafted speech is best given when it's turned into the telep. operator and used. Often the speaker will leave or add to the words worked out on the telep. and that's O.K. too.

What is the hangup about using a teleprompter ?

In a debate, I think you will see even Newt using notes.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 6:40 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Stuff I learned or relearned about Newt. He was born in Pennsylvania to a teen age mother and was adopted in infancy by his stepfather a career soldier.
Choosing to obtain deferments granted to students and fathers, Gingrich did not enlist and was not drafted during the Vietnam War. He expressed some regret about that decision in 1985, saying, "Given everything I believe in, a large part of me thinks I should have gone over."

He was brought up as a Lutheran then sometime in his college days he became a Baptist. Of course now a Catholic.

The House banking scandal and Congressional Post Office scandal--- Gingrich himself was among the 450 members of the House who had engaged in check kiting; he had overdrafts on twenty-two checks, including a $9,463 check to the Internal Revenue Service in 1990.
perelandra


Posts: 3,193
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 5:22 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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I'm trying to grasp why use of a teleprompter is such a big deal .
I once saw Phil Collins using a teleprompter when he was singing at the Grammy awards.
So why can't a pol who wants to be sure he's getting it right do the same?
Considering how the media pounce on every little verbal flub, it's very wise.
I'd love to see the old days of index cards and memorized speeches return; but it ain't gonna happen.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 10:50 AM   in response to: perelandra in response to: perelandra
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I don't get it either, why it means so much
. Far as I'm concerned Teleprompter, index cards, notes on wrist or hand is fine with me and I think you're right about every word being picked apart. What is said can't be denied as it can be replayed on You Tube or someplace.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 12:11 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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I have no problem with anyone using a teleprompter for any purpose whatsoever. My point, which everyone apparently missed, is that you usually can't use a teleprompter in a debate as answers are pretty much off the cuff and spontaneous, and I don't feel Obama will perform well against Gingrich if he happens to be the Republican nominee.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 2:32 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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In a debate, teleprompters and notes or nothing can help a candidate steer the question away from what is being asked. Such as Newt did when King questioned him.
{probably Mitt did too but not as blatently as Newt.}

Often ahead of time, the person has an inkling of what will be asked and can bone up on a satisfactory response.

I really don't recall seeing Obama in a debate. Too long ago but I don't think Newt is a good debater. Just because he's belicose, loud, and argumentive does not in my book constitute a good debater.

If questions are responded to and they bring up timely stuff, then I fine that helpful.

Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 2:43 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M wrote:My point, which everyone apparently missed, is that you usually can't use a teleprompter in a debate as answers are pretty much off the cuff and spontaneous, and I don't feel Obama will perform well against Gingrich if he happens to be the Republican nominee.

No, we didn't miss it. It's just that it seems to go against the record. Obama won the polling in each of his three debates with McCain, and he held strong in 25 Democratic primary debates. The only semi-gaffe he produced in those 28 appearances was his brusque "You're likable enough, Hillary" line. Obama has proven to be a very able debater.
wanderer


Posts: 5,069
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 2:50 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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but if republicans cover the airwaves and time with trivial comments about teleprompters - they won't have time to discuss or debate the real issues that our country faces.
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 27, 2012 9:15 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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The Newt Gingrich that would send Barack Obama to the corner like a whimpering puppy in the debates sure didn't show up last night.

The Romneytron 2012 made mince meat out of him. Even Newt's attack on Wolf Blitzer fell flat.
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 5:06 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Hate to disappoint Shar, but I don't "conveniently forget" anything.

"When you have no basis for argument, abuse the plaintiff." Marcus Tillius Cicero

The point that appears to have been missed was that the majority of Newt's peers sanctioned him. Can any other elected member be so well disliked?
Thanks Gramps for your elaborated response.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 5:41 AM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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And that's what Newt did when he didn't respond to Kings question but attacked him and the Press in general. A convenient way to NOT answer and take the heat off himself.

He or you and I may agree the Popular Press may have many, many faults but if you're not going to respond to the question, don't bother to appear at the debate. Buy your own time to smear the press.
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 7:57 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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I couldn't agree more. And that type of behavior scares the (blank) out of me...should by any chance he actually be elected, should not the same be expected? How would he "negotiate" with the heads of countries who possess nuclear resources. I don't believe too many people would accuse him of being even-headed, diplomatic, or forthright.

Yes, he may very well be intelligent, but people who suffer from paranoid schizophrenia are also - and before anyone/everyone gets all upset, I AM NOT stating he suffers from this disorder...but there is something under the surface. Exactly what it is, I don't want to know.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 9:19 AM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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Gingrich. The poster boy for loose cannon.
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 9:26 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Oh, yea!


Don't let anyone near him with a match!!


A wayward thought. He probably couldn't afford to pay for is own news releases after he spent so much money on this Tiffany's shopping spree. He probably kept at least one sales person employed. Yes, I know, I am getting sarcastic.

Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 11:34 AM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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Now I get it. That's Newts answer to the problem of unemployment.
Go out and buy a bunch of **** you don't need and at least one or two sales people will be employed. Maybe only temporarily but that's progress. Thanks for showing me the way.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 3:36 PM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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If Newt can afford to shop at Tiffanys, why do you resent it? I'd shop there if I could afford it. Newt has released his financial information and he is worth something like $3 million so I guess he can afford to shop there. He also paid about 35% of his income in income tax.
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 8:22 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M wrote:I think you have missed some of the debates, Sean. Newt does very well against anyone but particularly the moderators because they anger him.

Last night's debate proves my point above. Romney was very effective in the early part of the debate against Gingrich.

Obama is tethered to the telepromptor.

Did you watch the 2008 debates? Everyone looks better with a teleprompter, sure, but Obama not only handled a strong Democratic field, but McCain as well.
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 10:02 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Obama is tethered to the telepromptor.

And Shar and Kayaker complain about Democratic tripe. How petty can you get, Shar? Time and time again you keep bringing this charge up when time and time again we point out all presidents have used a teleprompter since they were developed in the fifties. This includes Republicans as well as Democrats.

I have to ask, what is it about this president that makes the teleprompter an issue? The only difference I see is the color of his skin. I look at those who are making an issue of the teleprompter and I see a group that is known to go up to the line of racism. Not calling you a racist, Shar, but I am saying this tripe is borderline racist.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 10:52 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Gramps, you know as wel as I do that when Obama first came on the scene, everyone was raving about what a great speaker he was. A few times without the teleprompter proved that he doesn't speak nearly well without his speech in front of him. IF that offends you, I'm sorry but I'm certainly not the only person who has noted it. Many people speak exceptionally well "off the cuff," and Newt happens to be one of them which is why I think he would do better than Obama in a debate. For what it's worth, I wouldn't have put George Bush up against Newt either.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 5:46 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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All I've seen Newt do "off the cuff" is rant.
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 8:13 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Which Bush - father or son?
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 2:07 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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I can assure you, Shar, that Obama is a great speaker. Probably the best I have seen for a very long time. You cannot graduate from Harvard without being able to give a speech.

I still think the comment verges on racism. The only thing I think that gets tethered to anything, besides a ball, are todlers walking down a street; animals, or slaves.

It seems to say a black man cannot know his speech without some help.

Still it remains petty and trite,
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 4:20 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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That is absolutely the most insulting comment you have made to me in some time. I had probably had more black friends in my life that you could ever imagine and I have racially mixed grandchildren. I am the last person you could ever accuse of racial prejudice. I don't need you to assure me about anything. I don't think Obama is a good public speaker without his teleprompter, it's as simple as that. And I've heard him. I also don't think Bush was a good public speaker but for totally different reasons.

As for your idiotic comment about "tethered," astronauts are tethered as they walk on the surface of the moon. That word has absolutely no racial implications except the ones you have just fabricated.

Now that's the end of it. I am at the end of my tether. Leave me alone until you have some intelligent comments to make.
wanderer


Posts: 5,069
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 4:33 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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deleted
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 11:23 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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I am not calling you a racist, Shar. I am saying the comment is racial. I don't think you realize just how insulting it is.

And excuse me, but I also have a bi racial grandchild. Probably will not have another one, unless one of the kids adopt one though. Since my daughter married a Filipino I have discovered how even some comments I have made verges on racism. (Like calling my grandchild a monkey when she was very young--turns out when the Philippines was a colony of the US, we called Filipinos monkeys. I would have never known.)

Why don't you ask your black friends how they feel about the comment of Obama being tethered to his teleprompter.

Oh, and, the astronauts were not tethered when they walked on the moon. They are tethered when the walk in space, though.
Smiley1965


Posts: 8,221
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 12:37 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Gramps, you are being absolutely ridiculous about the teleprompter comments being racist! It's tiring being called a racist for saying anything negative about Obama.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 2:24 PM   in response to: Smiley1965 in response to: Smiley1965
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Some stuff is coded. In other words it means to a black person is different then what it means to a white person.

Often times as probably is your case, you don't mean to humiliate anyone but to some people it's there.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 2:51 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/01/23/newt-racism-the-racially-coded-language-of-presidential-candidates/

NEWT RACISM: THE RACIALLY CODED LANGUAGE OF PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES

The above may be of some help in understanding coding. Blacks do it as well.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 4:01 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Turtletoes, I am pretty familiar with the black community on a very personal basis. I know what they consider racism and what they don't. And no one I know would have been offended by a remark about being tethered to a teleprompter.
merganser

Posts: 461
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 2:23 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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I have no patience for racism. It's contrary to Scripture. But there isn't even the tiniest hint of racism in Shar's comments. I've heard plenty of the real thing. Ability to speak well with or without a teleprompter is an individual thing, not race-based.
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 9:54 PM   in response to: merganser in response to: merganser
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I stand pat with what I said, I am not backing down. The comment about Obama and his use of a teleprompter is in fact racist. Gingrich is the king of the use of coded words. He likes to use this comment every chance he gets--like when he appeared before a Jewish audience. Did anyone note that Gingrich himself was using a teleprompter himself when he was giving the speech?

Don't believe me? Watch this video: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-december-8-2011/the-matzorian-candidate
merganser

Posts: 461
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 10:31 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Again, Shar is not making hidden racist remarks. It's a teleprompter ... I assume whites use them ... I assume blacks use them ... some people are better speakers with them ... some people are better speakers without them. Whatever. It's a non-issue.

I don't listen to Gingrich. And I don't watch the Daily Show. Both are just too biased to get anything worthwhile out of.

This is what actually bothers me. Calling something racist when it's obviously not makes it much less credible when there is real racism.

Real racism that concerns me, for example, is using child slaves in Africa to grow cocoa so the big corporations can make cheap chocolate. That's not teleprompters, those are real children.
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 27, 2012 5:53 PM   in response to: merganser in response to: merganser
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Eisenhower was the first president to use a teleprompter. John F Kennedy did too. Lyndon Johnson used them even when he signed the Civil Rights Act. Nixon couldn't live without one. Ford definitely needed one. Carter used it too. Ronald Reagan, the great Orator from the Republican Party, used them. Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II also used them. At the last Republican convention every speaker used them. Same with the Democratic Convention. Yet some conservatives--notably Gingrich and the commentators at the Fox Network--have made an issue out of Obama using it.

Now, I ask, why is he different? The only difference I can see is the color of his skin.

I also decry human trafficing, the use of child labor; the pimping of young children (boys as well as girls) and the continued blackbirding of Asian women to work in the garment industry in American Samoa--yes, in American Samoa, a US territory, de facto slavery still exists.

Shar--I seriously doubt you know what your black neighbors and "friends" think of the many slights and coded language they are hearing from the radical conservative wing of the Republican party.

I continue to hold the comments about Obama being tethered to a teleprompter is racially coded language. Again, Shar, I am not calling you a racist. I am just saying you don't have to buy into the coded language of the radical right.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 27, 2012 6:07 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Shar--I seriously doubt you know what your black neighbors and "friends" think of the many slights and coded language they are hearing from the radical conservative wing of the Republican party.

This is what I wonder about. {secretly until now} I wonder if perhaps Shars friends, relatives, neighbors may be using code which she does not understand or is not aware of.

Kind of like kids will do in front of their parents.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 27, 2012 7:40 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Gramps, over the past 50 years, I have had some serious talks with these folks. Some of the kids I practically raised. They came to me when they needed something or when they couldn't talk to their parents. They spent nights in my home. They borrowed my car for dates. One of them has his Ph.D. now. They visit frequentIy. I know what they think.

That said, I don't have to explain myself to you or anyone on this board. Believe what you like. I know what the facts are.
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 28, 2012 8:53 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Bet you have not asked about how they feel about the comment that Obama is tethered to his teleprompter.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 28, 2012 8:57 AM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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I wouldn't even suppose to ask them such a ridiculous question and at least one of them would agree with me. Tether has never been a racist word, gramps, until you just chose to make it one. As I said before, I'm done with this conversation as I am now at the end of my tether.
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 28, 2012 9:52 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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"Tether," the word, is not racist. But the comment that Obama is tethered to his teleprompter has racial overtones. Ropes were tied to iron rings which went around the neck of slaves--thus being tethered.

If you are at the end of your rope, then stop responding. I am willing to move on.
merganser

Posts: 461
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 27, 2012 11:18 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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You changed your words a little here.

If you're accusing Shar of being racist, then I think that's completely inappropriate. She indicated a personal opinion that President Obama doesn't speak as well without a teleprompter. To Shar, I doubt there's any racial element to her statement. If that's her opinion, then it's no big deal.

If you're saying that Gingrich and others actively attempt to manipulate the race issue to their advantage, that's obvious. But that's Gingrich.
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 28, 2012 8:51 AM   in response to: merganser in response to: merganser
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I have consistently said I am not calling Shar a racist. I have said the comment has racial overtone and have asked her to stop buying into the language. I have not changed my words in any way.

Moving on.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 27, 2012 12:01 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Gramps, you are onto me. I was making a hidden, racial remarks but you are so dang smart you picked right up on it. Now just don't tell any of my black friends or relatives, will ya?
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 8:17 AM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Perhaps she never saw, or can't recall the infamous Checkers speech.
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 3:43 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Just to update my objections concerning the comment of Obama tethered to his teleprompter, I send a question to Dr. David Nice, a political science professor at Washington State University. I have known David for several years. I can't say we agree on everything, but we have had several discussions over the years that have always been enlightening. He is much more conservative than me.

Anyway, here is the exchange of emails we have had

Dear Wayne,
I think there is an element of racial prejudice to it. Lots of presidential
candidates have used teleprompters over the years, and as you noted, lots of
presidents have used them. In the age of television, speaking off the cuff can
be very hazardous, for any mistakes are likely to be in the evening news.
Another contributing factor is the greater polarization of the parties, which
has intensified conflict over everything, and Gingrich's combative style. He
believes in attacking adversaries for anything and everything, whether the
criticisms make any sense at all. He is also a southern Republican, and there
is a traditional of racial prejudice in the southern wing of the Republican
Party, at least since the 1960s.
I'm a little surprised that Gingrich hasn't criticized Romney very much for
hiding from the press most of the time and for mostly avoiding direct contact
with the ordinary people.
Take care.
David
________________________________________
From: beebe597@roadrunner.com beebe597@roadrunner.com
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 12:56 PM
To: Nice, David C
Subject: Tethered to the teleprompter

David

I was wondering if you can help me settle a discussion I have been having. As you know Republicans have
made a quasi issue out of Obama and his teleprompter. Every president since
Eisenhower have used them, and no one ever raised an eyebrow about that. Now we
have people mocking Obama's use. Gingrich has said he will debate Obama and
even let him use a teleprompter should Gingrich become the candidate.

My question is if every president has used them since the 50's with little
negative reaction to it, what makes this president different?

The only thing I can come up with is the color of his skin.

It seems to me the comments about Obama being tethered to his teleprompter
verges on racism. It seems to harken back to when slaves were tethered by the
neck or shackled around their feet.

I would like your reaction to this idea. Am I blowing smoke, or is there some
truth to this?

Thanks,

Wayne

Smiley1965


Posts: 8,221
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 3:50 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Gramps, let it go. She meant NOTHING racial about the comment, only that he's shown how poorly he speaks without it, whether black, white, yellow, whatever. BTW, I thought his skin looked really yellow/orange during his state of the union the other night. And he is half white, so I guess Shar is prejudiced towards whites and blacks both as her insane comment can only mean......

You are being ABSOLUTELY ridiculous about this whole thing. Obama is tethered to his teleprompter, people are tethered to their iPhones, folks are tethered to their TV's.........oh, and tether balls are tethered to their poles......golly gee hope that tether ball isn't black or someone will call me a racist.......I think we usually had white tether balls when I was in grade school back in the 70's......
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 5:14 PM   in response to: Smiley1965 in response to: Smiley1965
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Not saying Shar meant anything racial about it, just pointing out that the Southern Republicans have jumped all over this and it is racial.

There are many times Obama has spoken without a teleprompter and he had done very well; but, as David said, these days a president cannot afford to speak off the cuff because it can be distorted so easily in our instant news cycle.

Gingrich comes across as a lose cannon when he speaks off the cuff--and the term lose cannon comes from Naval terminology. When cannons were in men of wars (battleships) if a cannon came lose it could do a lot of damage to the man of war.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 3:54 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Well, gramps, I was going to drop this as you said you were but since you want to keep it going, one of my friends called the other night, the friend with his Ph.D. and I asked him if he thought the statement was racist. His response was to laugh and ask me why I asked. I explained the situation to him, and his response was, I think your friend has too much time on his hands.

Now I suppose you'll next contact someone at the NAAP to prove your point, but I'm done with it. Some people can find racial overtones in just about anything, and I think we all know that as well.

This same friend when he was just a kid, got stopped by an officer one evening and immediately began berating the offficer as to why he had pulled him over since he wasn't doing anything wrong and the officer just pulled him over because he was black. Thank, heavens, the officer was patient and responded to him nicely -- sir, at this time of evening, most people drive with their headlights on.

The friend was on his way to my house when this happened and he told me the story immediately. He said he'd learned a good lesson that night, and I think he did.

As for what your contact thinks, I could give a darn and you exaggerated my comment. I have stated a gazillion times that I have no problem with Obama using a teleprompter, yet you ignore that. My only comment that was without teleprompters, I think Gingrich would do better than Obama in a debate. So get over yourself. I am done with it.

Edited by: Shar M on Jan 30, 2012 4:55 PM
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 5:04 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar

You said, and I quote: *I think you have missed some of the debates, Sean. Newt does very well against anyone but particularly the moderators because they anger him. Obama will certainly anger him. Obama is tethered to the telepromptor. (Emphasis mine.) Newt does very well off the cuff without following a prepared speech.*

That is the comment I have been reacting to. That is the Southern Republican line. And that is a racist comment whether your friend agrees with me or not, and whether you meant it as a racist comment or not--which I doubt--but you have bought into this line, hook line and sinker. (You did not mention what his PhD is in, btw.}

I posted my acquaintance's comment I want to show this is not just my opinion. My acquaintance was willing to take time to give me a written reply. You friend only gave you a verbal reply. Tell you what, send him my inquiry to David and let him reply to our shared emails. Bet you won't.

And, also, I do not have too much time on my hands. I am working 60 hours a week as a taxi driver besides taking the time to build a Conestoga Wagon. If anyone has too much time on their hands, it is you.

Edited by: Gramps on Jan 30, 2012 3:07 PM
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 5:26 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Ph.D. is basketweaving.
Sweetmusicman


Posts: 1,191
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 7:12 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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I'm not asking for Christy, just thought he was one who at least made some sense and showed it by stating "I am not ready". I would have to know more >about him if he did run but off the cuff I doubt I'd vote for him.

Thanks for the Vote......lol

Christy
perelandra


Posts: 3,193
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 5:26 PM   in response to: Sweetmusicman in response to: Sweetmusicman
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ROTFL!!!!!!

If you were a natural-born US citizen, I'd vote for you! I bet you'd have an original platform!
dyrachok

Posts: 4
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 11:56 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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"he got us " "he "

what planet are you from?

He didn't do any of those things you credit him for.

You're exactly what is wrong in America!

You're blind and ignorant!

GM was STOLEN from the shareholders and then GIVEN to the auto union workers, then subsidized by the tax payers while gaining $9 billion in profits. Chrysler was also STOLEN from it's shareholders and then mostly GIVEN to the FORIEGN MANUFACURING GIANT FIAT!!!!

The Navy SEALS GOT BIN LADEN after 13 years YEARS of surveillance...............Obama was still the corrupt Senator from Illinois!!!! during most of that time! voting against every military expenditure........

"most of the tarp money has been paid back" ???????

uggh, I don't believe you are a Christian anyway, why should I waste my time explaining facts to you that are obvious to anyone with their own brain

Uncle Joe was right about you
rescure warrior


Posts: 467
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 24, 2012 10:06 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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A yes fact check, well hate to tell you this but they are not always right, whether you are on the left or right. The fact that is now owned by a conservative news paper brings its legitimize into question. One should always check with two or more sources (as is required in any college course) before putting said facts up to be passably shot down.
wanderer


Posts: 5,069
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 9:27 AM   in response to: rescure warrior in response to: rescure warrior
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i agree with a number of resources to prove your point - in reenacting and genealogy 3 is a good round number.

but i can't find the name of the newspaper that owns fact check - all i can find is Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania.

HELP!
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 9:46 AM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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I don't believe it has been purchased by any newspaper but is still operated by Annenburg. It's humorous that conservatives feel that it sometimes leans left and liberals feel it leans conservative.

What other sources do you use? I certainly do not trust any of the networks or cable networks for a non-biased answer.
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 10:35 AM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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Perhaps RW is thinking of Politifact, which has taken a turn for the worse lately.
rescure warrior


Posts: 467
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 3:44 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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yes I was thinking of Politifact, it was taken over by the milwaukee journal/ Sentinel, sorry my mistake
KayakerGal


Posts: 86
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 9:15 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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You see, this is just what I was talking about in the other thread. The news and views board just gets ridiculous with the constant attacks against anyone who expresses a conservative viewpoint. Anyone who happens to point out that obama isn't perfect gets treated with sneering disdain.

Good grief, people, get over it! He's the worst president we've ever had, and has consistently used his office to belittle and compromise this great nation. He 'apologizes' for America's past, bows to dictators, compromises our armed forces, marginalizes people of faith and does everything he can to destroy us from the inside. He's not even an American citizen, for pete's sake! He's a socialist with no understanding of economics and dreams of becoming dictator. He regularly uses executive orders to bypass the legislative process. He can't give a speech or answer a question unless it's scripted ahead of time, and his constant 'dramatic pauses' while he strikes his arrogant nose in the air position as though he's posing for a statue in the hall of heroes or something is just pathetic.

He didn't save the auto industry.
He didn't create any jobs.
He hasn't improved the economy
He most certainly hasn't allowed any transparency in his administration.
He didn't shut down terrorist cells.

He has, however, managed to spend more money in three years than any other president.

Anything good that has happened in the country over the last three years was the result of hard work by true Americans who are moving forward despite the government.

And the mainstream media fawns over him like the bought and paid for cronies they are, while liberals blindly follow down his path.

Bah! The whole thing makes me sick.

What America really needs it a true LEADER. A man who knows America is the best nation in the world and isn't ashamed to say so. A man who knows our country was founded on the principles of the constitution; our unique mixture of personal freedoms and personal responsibilities that allows the citizens to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness without the government interfering in our lives. A man who will maintain our status as a sovereign nation with protected borders, rules for immigration, and refusal to abide by the demands of the UN. A man who is willing to make the tough decisions today instead of caving to special interests and forfeiting our children's future. A conservative who understands there is a right and a wrong, not a liberal who thinks everything is ok so long as it feels good at the moment.

Who is that man? I don't know. I certainly don't see him in any of the current contenders, though any one of them would be better than the idiot we have now. Gingrich was right to tell off the reporters for resorting to personal attacks. Paul is right to say government must be limited. Santorum is right to say America is great. Romney, well haven't heard Romney say much right yet. None of them really have it all together.

What we need is a REAL conservative. That's not what the republicans are; they're just about as bad as the liberal democrats anymore.

So, go ahead, call me intolerant and misguided or wrong and unenlightened, whatever words the liberals are currently using for those who have the guts to disagree. Just know that Shar has a lot more right than wrong and I'm speaking up because the way she's been treated on this thread is not right.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 9:39 AM   in response to: KayakerGal in response to: KayakerGal
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Hi Kyaker. I am not saying he is the worst. I am just saying he is the worst since Jimmy Carter. And I agree with you about the lack of candidates. By both parties. What have we had for the past few years. Al Gore, John Kerry and Obama for the Democrats. George Bush (it should have been Jeb who is a true leader), John McCain and now a whole slew of candidates who have some good points and equally as many bad points.

Yes, the ridicule continues which is why I am taking a page from your book and foregoing political discussion (at least that's my goal) and refusing to respond to baiting.
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 9:45 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M wrote:refusing to respond to baiting.

The "baiting" goes both ways, Shar, when you post things that are factually not true.

Edited by: Sean on Jan 25, 2012 9:45 AM
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 9:44 AM   in response to: KayakerGal in response to: KayakerGal
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KayakerGal wrote:Anyone who happens to point out that obama isn't perfect gets treated with sneering disdain.

You've obviously never read what I've said about Obama.

He regularly uses executive orders to bypass the legislative process.

All the other "tripe" that came before this has been debunked over and over and over again. But for a moment, I'd like to ask you to please compare Obama's use of executive orders versus Bush's use of executive orders. How -- SPECIFICALLY -- is Obama's use of executive orders different and worse than Bush's? I'm curious to hear the rationale on this one.

He has, however, managed to spend more money in three years than any other president.

If you go back and check the facts, you'll see that every President spends more than those that came before them. It should also be pointed out that if you want to complain about the deficit, that President Obama inherited those trillion-dollar deficits from his predecessor -- they were the result of TARP, passed in 2008.

Enjoyable rant, though.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 10:38 AM   in response to: KayakerGal in response to: KayakerGal
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You're wrong on so many counts.
I don't think Shar is treated with disdain unless disagreeing with her is considered disdain. Just this week I admitted I was wrong on one count and am pretty sure I have done as much in the past.

I am an Obama backer and do not think he is perfect and never expected him to be but think he is doing a fine job considering what he was handed from Bush who himself said he wouldn't have to straighten stuff out but it would be up to who ever follows him to do so.

He's not even an American citizen, for pete's sake! He's a socialist with no understanding of economics and dreams of becoming dictator.

You don't seem to know the difference between socialism and community or team work.

This statement of yours alone tells a lot about you. OBAMA IS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN and has proved it. Even John McCain said so.


I will go no further because it's clear to me you have a mind set that has been terribly played with.

Smiley1965


Posts: 8,221
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 2:29 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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I didn't watch much of the state of the union, but one part that caught my attention was him talking about how he wasn't going to subsidize the state colleges and universities. He didn't hesitate to do that with failing companies so overpaid execs could still get their bonuses, but heaven forbid we help families paying for exorbitant higher education costs.
wanderer


Posts: 5,069
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 2:40 PM   in response to: Smiley1965 in response to: Smiley1965
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When kids do graduate, the most daunting challenge can be the cost of college. At a time when Americans owe more in tuition debt than credit card debt, this Congress needs to stop the interest rates on student loans from doubling in July. Extend the tuition tax credit we started that saves middle-class families thousands of dollars. And give more young people the chance to earn their way through college by doubling the number of work-study jobs in the next five years.

Of course, it's not enough for us to increase student aid. We can't just keep subsidizing skyrocketing tuition; we'll run out of money. States also need to do their part, by making higher education a higher priority in their budgets. And colleges and universities have to do their part by working to keep costs down. Recently, I spoke with a group of college presidents who've done just that. Some schools re-design courses to help students finish more quickly. Some use better technology. The point is, it's possible. So let me put colleges and universities on notice: If you can't stop tuition from going up, the funding you get from taxpayers will go down. Higher education can't be a luxury - it's an economic imperative that every family in America should be able to afford.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2012-01-24/state-of-the-union-transcript/52780694/1

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/01/24/transcript-obamas-2012-state-union/

perelandra


Posts: 3,193
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 5:31 PM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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You go, wanderer. As I learned with both Biblical citations and term-paper research, "Context, context, context."
This is why I think 10-second sound bites should be banned.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 3:19 PM   in response to: Smiley1965 in response to: Smiley1965
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I don't think that's the reason he did it but he did pull the car cos. out and that saved jobs for many people. I'd have wished he would have had a couple more caveats but most of that money has been repaid.
wanderer


Posts: 5,069
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 4:44 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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gm has repaid about half - i believe the balance is in stock -

chrysler seems to be done

and Ally bank - the old GMAC - doesn't look like it has done much.

http://www.treasury.gov/initiatives/financial-stability/briefing-room/reports/tarp-daily-summary-report/TARP%20Cash%20Summary/Daily%20TARP%20Update%20-%2001.24.2012.pdf

Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,267
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 3:30 PM   in response to: Smiley1965 in response to: Smiley1965
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Are you sure you're putting the blame on the right shoulders ?

http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/ea92c60adffc4df298562a75cf329e8a/US-FYI-Student-Loan-Rates/
. In addressing the rapidly rising cost of higher education, Obama noted that the fixed interest rates on student loans are set to double in July if Congress fails to act.
perelandra


Posts: 3,193
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 5:40 PM   in response to: Smiley1965 in response to: Smiley1965
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Shar, I can't speak for every state university, but the one in my town has a bad reputation for doing some financially-irresponsible stuff.
Two college presidents ago, we had a guy named Elliot. One of his first acts as college president was to have all the kitchen cupboards in Selmo Park (the residence provided for the presidents) replaced--not because the old cupboards needed it, but because his wife disliked them. That cost $30,000 of our money. And at a time when the plumbing and wiring in most of the dorms needed updating, he spent money on...landscaping. And buying up surrounding housing to tear down and pave over for parking lots. Yikes. Also under his aegis came a brand-new library which cost far, far more than renovating the old one would have; and oh, did I mention he also pushed for the purchase of a Lear jet for "aviation department" use? LOL WUT?????
Some state universities need to be taken in hand.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 25, 2012 5:55 PM   in response to: perelandra in response to: perelandra
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I think you mean Smiley as I didn't address the college situation. My kids are long graduated and a few years yet until the grandkids get there.
perelandra


Posts: 3,193
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Feb 1, 2012 5:10 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Oops, Shar, sorry! Soooooo my bad! I was running out of time (library computers automatically log you off at the 30-min mark) and was trying to finish my post before I got dumped. Add to that the fact that this has turned into a really long and tangled thread, and you can see how I got mixed up.
It was in fact Smiley I was replying to. Sorry again. :(
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Feb 1, 2012 8:46 PM   in response to: perelandra in response to: perelandra
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No need to apologize, Pere. We're glad to have you back with us even for 30 minutes at a time.
wanderer


Posts: 5,069
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 27, 2012 9:34 AM   in response to: Smiley1965 in response to: Smiley1965
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right now, friday, january 27, at 10:30 est - the president is on tv - at the U of M Ann arbor - he might be talking about college help.

might be worth checking out the transcripts.

i am not paying attention as today is too busy.

good luck
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 26, 2012 12:12 AM   in response to: KayakerGal in response to: KayakerGal
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He didn't save the auto industry.

Tell that to the one million auto workers who are making the new cars of today. Romney wanted to see the Big Three go under. Republicans refused to authorize any bail out, but Obama used stimulus money to keep GM and Chrysler afloat. Now GM is the largest automaker in the world again. Chrysler has more than doubled its production in the last three years. Ford is opening new factories in the US.

He didn't create any jobs.

Depending on who you cite, Obama created 1.4 million jobs (Congressional Budget Office) or 2.7 million jobs (Moody Analysis).

He hasn't improved the economy

47% of Americans are saying the economy is improving. This is up from 37% this time last year. The unemployment rate has decreased to 8.5% from a high of nearly 10%.

He most certainly hasn't allowed any transparency in his administration.

Then you did not see the website showing how the stimulus funds were being spent. His transparency could have been better but has been a much better improvement over the last eight years.

He didn't shut down terrorist cells.

Bin Laden is dead. Several other Al Qaida leaders have also been killed. It's strength has certainly been reduced. We have not had an attack on American soil in the past four years. Just this morning it was announced an American hostage and a Danish hostage were rescued in Somalia. Then there are the also the reports of quite a number or pirates who have been stopped.
calan

Posts: 996
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 8:05 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Gramps- you need to strive for truth, not the other....

but Obama used stimulus money to keep GM and Chrysler afloat.

Where did Obama's stimulus money come from?....The USA is broke, has been, and never had the money for such use. Who did he turn over partial ownership to? The UAW...why don't you say so?

How much has GM paid back? Please, tell us. But be sure to include all of the billions of TARP dollars unpaid!

He didn't create any jobs.

Depending on who you cite, Obama created 1.4 million jobs (Congressional Budget Office) or 2.7 million jobs (Moody Analysis).

He hasn't improved the economy

47% of Americans are saying the economy is improving. This is up from 37% this time last year. The unemployment rate has decreased to 8.5% from a high of nearly 10%.

I'm not buying any of these excuses. These statistics are all manipulated either by polls, our own federal government, and the media.

I work in business. I can tell you, where I am, this is still a bad and long recession. There is no credit to be taken!
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 8:17 PM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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Obama used TARP money authorized by congress to bail out troubled assets--over the objections of Republicans. The deal to bail out GM involved several steps including buying bonds and stocks. The bonds have been paid back with interest. The federal government still holds common stock in the company and plans to sell it when and if the stocks reach $58.00. Right now GM stock is around $24.00 so it might take a while. Yes, the UAW got part ownership of GM but that was part of the rewrite of their contract with GM. It was separate from the federal deal. But, I argue since UAW owns part of the company they have a more direct interest in keeping the company healthy.

Of course, you won't buy any statistic I cite--they don't fit your world view. Doesn't mean they are wrong, though.
calan

Posts: 996
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 8:22 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Doesn't mean they are correct or accurate either!
calan

Posts: 996
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 8:34 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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I will repeat, there is no credit to be taken!
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 9:48 PM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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What business are you in, calan?
calan

Posts: 996
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 31, 2012 5:42 AM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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We service commercial transportation, construction, and industrial businesses in the rust belt. Up until the crash of 2008 and the Democratic leadership that followed, we had been growing annually & a large percentage of our customers were too.
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 31, 2012 10:31 AM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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The crash was under the Bush administration. It started to unravel in June of 2007. Bush had ample time to do something about it. That said, I am not going to deny the recovery is not as I would have hoped; but, then again, congress as well as the president could have done more. It is especially hard to get anything through the Senate when the opposition continues to filibuster. They should have worked more on compromises.

However, you still have a job. If we had let the automakers go under as the Republicans had wanted, that job probably would not be there.
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 31, 2012 10:51 AM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Gramps wrote:The crash was under the Bush administration. It started to unravel in June of 2007. Bush had ample time to do something about it.

Well, actually he did -- Bush signed the Economic Stimulus Act of 2008. This stimulus bill passed Congress with broad bipartisan support (81-16 in the Senate, and 380-34 in the House -- including ayes from Boehner and McConnell).

I guess "stimulus" is only a bad thing when a Democratic President is in charge...
calan

Posts: 996
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Feb 2, 2012 5:10 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Not just any Democrat president, this one currently in office. He can't run on his record, and he is spending this country into doom. FYI, George Bush II was not an ideal president for conservatives. As a matter of fact, democrats should have loved him for his spending habits, while trying to get along with them. Going back to your Economic Stimulus Act, much smaller in scale. From what I read below, it wasn't corrupt, was given to nearly all Americans, and encouraged "all" businesses to reinvest. It didn't favor union voters or get lost and unaccounted.

The Economic Stimulus Act of 2008 has three main parts: an individual tax rebate that the Internal Revenue Service will send out starting in mid-2008 and two business provisions that encourage investment during 2008 by increasing limits on expensing investment costs and accelerating depreciation of qualifying investments. The congressional Joint Committee on Taxation estimates that the three provisions together will reduce federal revenue by $152 billion in fiscal 2008 and by another $16 billion in fiscal 2009. In subsequent years, revenue will actually rise as firms will claim less depreciation for investments made in 2008 than they otherwise would have. As a result, revenue losses from 2008 through 2018 will total $125 billion.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/stimulus/2008.cfm

Two totally different ideas of stimulus here Sean. Looks like Mr. Bush had overwhelming support, representatives knew what they were voting on, and he didn't have to play games to get it done.
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Feb 2, 2012 2:10 PM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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calan wrote:Going back to your Economic Stimulus Act, much smaller in scale. From what I read below, it wasn't corrupt, was given to nearly all Americans, and encouraged "all" businesses to reinvest. It didn't favor union voters or get lost and unaccounted.

Over 98% of Americans got a tax cut from ARIRA, and it extended the depreciation provision in the 2008 bill as well as $50 billion in other tax provisions (including extending the time that businesses could spread losses to offset profits on their tax returns) that directly benefited business.

There was nothing controversial about what Obama did in 2009 with the stimulus -- it's what Presidents have always done during recessions (even Ronald Reagan) -- the difference was that the other party wasn't willing to do what was right for the country.
jwalker1166

Posts: 532
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 5:52 PM   in response to: KayakerGal in response to: KayakerGal
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A lot of families here in Detroit think otherwise. Don't know were your from but one should consider the what the
republican alternative would have led too. GM s biggest problem was its management and the infighting between divisions.
There was a reason President Obama asked for the top mans resignation . My brother who had years in GM management
told me this. The guy said that GM was a world company and as far as the United States was concerned the country could Go to He**
The next move was to layoff thousands of engineers and techs and move the work to Mexico City wage about $1.50 hour.
The attitude at GM was you have to buy our cars and if you did not like too bad. I switch to Fords.
Shar M


Posts: 15,897
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 6:55 PM   in response to: jwalker1166 in response to: jwalker1166
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And you don't think the unions had anything to do with that?
Gramps


Posts: 14,434
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 7:50 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Let's see

Obama

Created 3,000,000 jobs
actually reduced government
signed a bill for 2 trillion dollars in deficit reduction
signed health care reform
signed Wall Street reform
saved the auto industry.
Saw all the bailout money returned with interest
signed three new trade agreements
repelled "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."
killed Osama Bin Laden
authorized the rescue of several American and foreign hostages
toppled Gaddafi without an American casualty
unified the world against Iran
has the Arab League watching Syria
No tax dollars were spent on the BP clean up--he made BP pay for it all.
has deported more illegals than any other president
ended the war in Iraq
supports state's rights for medical marijuana
Decreased military spending by $500 billion
Increased veterans' benefits every year
saved the world from global financial collapse
hired more border patrol agents than any other president
and he quit smoking!

What have you done for your country in the past three years?

Oh ya, he has a record to stand on.
calan

Posts: 996
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 30, 2012 7:53 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Possibly, the source of the story and resulting attitude? The GM Lordstown, OH plant has quite a story of worker-caused product sabotage from it's previous generation.
Sean


Posts: 6,516
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Jan 31, 2012 8:13 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M wrote:And you don't think the unions had anything to do with that?

Last time I checked, contracts were negotiated between the union and management. So every single one of those union contracts that were agreed to is every bit as much the fault of management as they are the union.

I'll take your complaints about unions more seriously when you start taking the impacts of management malfeasance just as seriously. It wasn't the unions that wrecked Enron. It wasn't Hedge Fund Traders Local #729 that sent Wall Street into the rocks in 2008.

Unions and corporations are human institutions that are made up of humans. Some of them are going to be well-run, some of them are not. If we're going to bash unions when they do bad, then you need to be fair and bash corporations when they do the same. (And, it 's not as if corporations need any more advantages in the battle versus unions -- union membership continues to decline as a % of the population).
jwalker1166

Posts: 532
Re: Democrats exaggerate as well as Republicans
Posted: Feb 2, 2012 7:51 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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If the UAW took a pay cut the management would give themselves a pay raise.
That has happened. My uncle, my brother and my dad where all corporate management
The hatred of the unions is a common management theme. I worked as an industrial engineer.
Manage provocation and union retaliation was a on going problem. Most union work rules have
a good reason behind them. But the boss who has messed up wants to brake them in order to cover him self.
Lots of dirty tricks and payback. Silly childish games. Most of the auto plants in times past were hot
dirty and dangerous. The UAW has always strived for better conditions but it was considered too costly
by GM management. It has been found that a person in a comfortable work environment is more productive.
And if the work is tasked in a reasonable manor and line workers can have input in to problem solving
quality improves. Bare in mind product engineering is a finial limiting factor. Hence A Chevy is not a Rolls or
a Mercedes. Simplistic logic.

Edited by: jwalker1166 on Feb 2, 2012 7:51 PM