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Permlink Replies: 119 - Last Post: Feb 20, 2012 2:28 PM Last Post By: TheHawg
apaul


Posts: 507
If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 14, 2012 12:08 PM
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I have read the thread on abortion with interest even though we've all heard these arguments over and over before.

My question is this....... If abortion was made illegal today what would happen ?

Would all those babies born be adopted ?

Would a women whom aborted her own baby be tried for murder ?

Could a woman be prevented from leaving the country if she was going to Canada for an abortion?

Grumpy


Posts: 1,177
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 14, 2012 7:22 PM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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Apaul, there's a name from the past. I didn't know you still hung out here.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 4:09 PM   in response to: Grumpy in response to: Grumpy
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Hi Grumpy, yes I still read the posts on here.
I am interested in American politics and I read this site amongst others to help take the temperature of public opinion over there, and its also entertaining in a sort of soap opera kind of way.
wanderer


Posts: 5,053
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 15, 2012 9:32 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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hmm, looks like all those posters who have so vehemently posted their opinons are laying low now.

heck, death row sounds good - send the mom to mr perry in texas - an eye for an eye. isn't that what the bible says?

and especially if these personhood amendments go through - birth control - miscarriage - sterillization - off with her head.

what happened to that every sperm is sacred amendment and the one where the man had to pay the bills of any woman carrying his child?

sounds like do as i say, not as i do stuff.
Smiley1965


Posts: 8,210
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 15, 2012 10:08 AM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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I don't know what would happen apaul. I would pray the adoption process for American couples would become much less burdensome than it is now, and that those babies could go home to adoptive families much more quickly and inexpensively. While a 15 year old can get pregnant in five minutes in the back of a car, a stable adoptive family has to go through months of intrusive home studies and huge financial burden to become adoptive parents, which is why so many adopt from overseas. If those policies were changed, there would be many many more US adoptions, especially as their would be more babies born that would be placed for adoption.

In a perfect world.

I believe our society has become so ingrained to the newer accepted low morality, that the law would be greatly ignored by many. While 50 years ago pregnancy out of wedlock was greatly stigmatized, it's not anymore, so unfortunately, the prevention and abstinence isn't there as much as it used to be. Abortion for the last 40 years has turned into a casual event. People don't do the right thing anymore, because now it's "if it feels good, it's right". And then they realize regretfully after the fact that it didn't feel so good after all.

I would love to see God come down and smack us all upside the head with the proverbial 2x4
Evelyn203


Posts: 125
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 15, 2012 11:44 AM   in response to: Smiley1965 in response to: Smiley1965
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My question to all those who oppose abortion is this: how can you oppose abortion, yet support those who would make access to birth control more difficult, if not impossible, then deny assistance to the family through budget cuts to SNAP, Medicaid, and CHIP?.
The Blunt amendment would allow insurance coverage to be denied for any drug if an employer had religious or "moral" objections to it. It is being attached to a must-pass energy/transportation bill, because the odds are excellent that it would not pass as a free-standing bill. "Personhood" bills would outlaw many forms of hormonal contraceptives, even if they are used for medical disorders.
http://www.nyu.edu/shc/medservices/oral.contraceptives.html

PS: "low morality" is not just in the past 40 years. I have a "premature" cousin who just turned 70, and her "premature" daughter turned 55 the same month.
Sean


Posts: 6,512
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 4:24 PM   in response to: Evelyn203 in response to: Evelyn203
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The Blunt amendment would be a disaster. It would allow any organization to deny coverage for any procedure it deemed immoral -- not just religious organizations. It would make the employer health care market infinitely more complex, not less.
KayakerGal


Posts: 86
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 8:32 PM   in response to: Smiley1965 in response to: Smiley1965
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Smiley, I know what you mean about the 2x4.

What I see as so very very sad in this whole discussion is the casual acceptance of abortion as birth control. It's not. Abortion is murder.

And the 900 lb gorilla in the room? DON'T GET PREGNANT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

With all the hormonal drugs and condoms and whatever else is out there and readily available for use to prevent pregnancy it is plain sinful, selfish, murderous foolishness that sees abortion as an answer. Good grief, these days condoms are on the rack right next to the candy bars at the gas station. Use them!

Parents need to teach their children morals and right behavior. And while they're at it, turn off the tv shows with all the sex. Know where your kids are and what they're doing. Intervention and changing what is considered 'fun' or 'hip' and part of popular culture will go a long way to preventing unwanted pregnancies. Hey, here's an idea, what if we saved having sex for AFTER we're married?

Get the government out of the way and allow churches and charities to help at-risk youth. Get the government out of the way and allow churches and charities to be sanctuaries for unwed mothers, or to work with mothers who do not want their baby to find a good adoptive home.

The thousands of abortions that happen every day are not necessary, and don't need to happen, and shouldn't happen. By allowing it to happen our nation is basically slapping God in the face.

I am appalled and sickened that anyone who would call themselves Lutheran or Christian would even consider abortion as anything less than murder.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 17, 2012 12:39 PM   in response to: KayakerGal in response to: KayakerGal
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. Good grief, these days condoms are on the rack right next to the candy bars at the gas station. Use them!

I thought condoms were a form of birth control.

Most men don't want to use them and I won't go into that here.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 4:20 PM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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Yes no one has answered them yet, I think if banning abortion is the objective it would be interesting to discuss the practical repercussions of such a law I think there are approximately 4000 abortions in the U.S every day. Would it really be possible to adopt that many children everyday or is the plan to create more children's homes? would they be government funded? I never here what the people who would like to make abortion illegal would do with all the unwanted babies born into the U.S. What is the plan do you know?
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 8:39 PM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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Personal responsibility would be a good start, apaul. And if abortions were not quite so readily available, perhaps more people would develop it. But please read Kayaker Girls post just above mine. I can't improve on what she has said.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 17, 2012 12:31 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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So you agree with her (KG) that abortion is murder?

I guess you do and so I imagine that you would like to see abortion made illegal today?

And your plan to deal with the 4000 unwanted babies born in America tomorrow and the 4000 born the next day and so on is?

Some vague notion that if abortion was made illegal Americans would change their behaviour lets say your right and they do, lets say you manage to half the abortion rate that would be 2000 unwanted babies born everyday how would deal with them? adoption or children's homes? would you like the children's homes to be funded by the Government? your going to need allot 2000 new unwanted babies everyday and that's if Americans really did change their behaviour they may not, have you any evidence that they would?
MelFamy


Posts: 2,563
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 15, 2012 8:08 PM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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Good questions, apaul. Another one would be to ask if every miscarriage would have to be investigated by police. Yet another is whether we should test women regularly, just in case they get in the family way, and want to end the pregnancy without government interference. Until that fetus is alive and well, viable outside the womb, it's existence and fate is none of the government's business.

Until I see so-called right-to-lifers spill more ink about about the starving kids in Africa, until I see the right wing calling for better health care and nutrition for the nation's kids, until I see a real effort to improve education and vocational training in this country, I have to think that the anti-abortion crowd is more about anti-sex, more about control of the individual, than it is about the life in the Mother's womb.
Smiley1965


Posts: 8,210
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 10:15 AM   in response to: MelFamy in response to: MelFamy
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Hi Mel, welcome back, was thinking about you the other day, hadn't seen you much.

And I have to strongly disagree with your last statement; it's simply not true. It's possible to care about more than one issue at a time.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 4:26 PM   in response to: MelFamy in response to: MelFamy
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Hi Melfamy I think you may well be right even so I would like to hear the plan from the anti abortionists of what exactly would happen to all these babies born everyday one assumes they do have a plan I have just never seen it discussed before have you?
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 5:53 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/02/15/government-sanctioned-rape-in-state-virginia-and-texas

I'm keeping my mouth shut on this one. [for a while} It just makes me so angry.
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 8:24 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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http://www.youtube.com/user/TheLCMS?ob=0

I think all of the major Lutheran synods, with the exception of the ELCA, have spoken out about this.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 9:47 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 10:09 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Yes.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 10:39 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Virginia¿s ultrasound bill takes the war on women to a new level. These politicians aren't only invading women¿s hospital rooms, they¿re requiring women to undergo an incredibly invasive procedure without their consent. That¿s not only insulting to women, it flies in the face of our values as a free nation.¿

Your post had nothing to do with the above.
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 10:42 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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I thought it was as good a place as any to post it and it definitely speaks to abortion or the abortion pill. Just wanted to show our church's position on this.

As for the procedure being invasive, a vaginal examination during pregnancy is invasive but it's necessary.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 11:03 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Most people here are aware of our position. That's what the debate is about.

Now, are you saying you agree with states having the right to use invasive procedures on women weather they want them or not ?
Are you saying our synod also agrees it's o.k. to use these procedures weather women want them or not ?

If so, it's tantamount to rape that you and our Synod are playing with and agreeing to.

http://blog.pfaw.org/content/virginia-house-takes-the-war-women-new-level

From the blog:

Women who are too early in their term for an external ultrasound to be effective ¿ roughly 88 percent of those seeking abortions -- would be required to undergo an invasive trans-vaginal ultrasound.

When a Democratic lawmaker proposed an amendment requiring a woman¿s consent for these procedures, it was voted down.

The Virginia bills take the War on Women to a new level. Requiring women to undergo an unnecessary and invasive procedure to please politicians is oppressive and regressive.
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 11:11 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Double post.

Edited by: Shar M on Feb 16, 2012 12:16 PM
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 11:29 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Sorry.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 11:12 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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And another thing. I find it hard to believe our Synod hates women so much they want to stomp all over them.
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 11:18 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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The video I linked to says absolutely nothing about ultrasounds. Listen to it. But I can tell you this: The Synod strongly opposes abortion. If you think that's stomping all over women, that's your problem.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 11:34 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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I don't know what you linked to but it says :

" It also passed a requirement that all women seeking an abortion first be subjected to an ultrasound, even if medically unnecessary. Women who are too early in their term for an external ultrasound to be effective ¿ roughly 88 percent of those seeking abortions -- would be required to undergo an invasive trans-vaginal ultrasound."

http://blog.pfaw.org/content/virginia-house-takes-the-war-women-new-level

How would you know about the 88% in the article if you didn't link to it ?

Something strange about that.
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 11:38 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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I didn't know about it. I was quoting you. If it stated that in the article, I missed it. Abdominal ultrasounds can be done as early as eight weeks. But I have no problem with it being done either way. If you want an abortion, you need to be willing to take whatever steps are necessary to accomplish your aim. Certainly having an abortion is invasive so I think it's much ado about nothing.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 11:45 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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And I'm accused of being what was it, something like heartless.
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 4:18 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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How is that heartless? The ultrasound is no more invasive than the abortion the woman is planning and perhaps just seeing that infant might be cause for her to change her mind. I see it happen every week. And that is what Planned Parenthood is really concerned about.

Gramps, the LCMS, WELS and the ELS have all made statements.
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 11:16 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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YOu apparently didn't listen to the video because it had nothing to do with the law in Virginia. It has to do with the government forcing religious organizations to provide birth control and abortion services to their employees.

Do I think the procedure is invasive? Yes, an internal ultrasound is invasive. But I also think any woman wanting an abortion should be required to have an ultra sound, either internal or external. Where do you get the information that 88 percent of women seek abortion too early for exernal ultrasound? I do agree that external ultrasound should be used wherever necessary.
Smiley1965


Posts: 8,210
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 2:42 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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A vaginal ultrasound is invasive, and an abortion is not? Do you know what they actually do during an abortion? An abortion is much more traumatic to a woman than an ultrasound....
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 3:56 PM   in response to: Smiley1965 in response to: Smiley1965
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No doubt about it.
I did not say an abortion was not traumatic .Not the issue.

The issue is, the Virginia bill which show the disrespect anti-choice lawmakers have for women¿s personal and private reproductive decisions made with their doctors and their families.¿

Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 12:12 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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It can also harm the fetus.
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 4:16 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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I can't believe you made that statement. An abortion is harmful to the fetus. The chances of an ultrasound harming the fetus is unlikely.
Gramps


Posts: 14,432
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 12:26 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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All major Synods?

Are you talking about the WELS?

Hardly a major Synod

There are only two, that I know of.

The ELCA is the largest.

LCMS is the second largest.

The WELS comes in as a distant third

(Did you know there are nearly 50 Lutheran bodies still in North America?)
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 16, 2012 6:20 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Sorry Gramps, I'm not really replying to you...I just want to interject:

.................just who is going to be paying for all these ultrasounds?
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 10:50 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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First off, all of this talk about 4000 unwanted babies really misses the point. That is "end justifes the means" talk. If it is murder, as we believe, it shouldn't be tolerated. Where in your Bible does it justify committing a sin to avoid unwanted consequences? It doesn't.

Second, try to imagine a world in which infanticide is prosecuted as other murders are. What would be some of the natural consequences of such a law?

1) With people being sentenced to long prison senses for murder. Will we as a culture continue to take such a casual view of sex? Especially sex outside of marriage? Or, rather, will it really emphasize that one of the consequences of sex is children and if people are going to do it, they need to be ready to handle those consequences. Personally, I think it would encourage women to think twice before having sex with just anyone.

2) With abortion being illegal. Those who still cling to a culture of pre-marital sex will likely take extra precaution to avoid pregnancy. I think more people would use contraceptives (which equals a lot less pregnancies).

3) I think a law demanding that the father of a child provide for that child ought to be put into place. We need to make sure males share in the accountability of raising their children. I think many men would think twice about having premarital sex if they knew that for the next 18 years 20% of their income would be going to raise the child.

Perhaps all of the consequences of such a law would encourage our nation to reflect on just why marriage is such a bedrock establishment in our culture, and why sex really should wait until after marriage (just as God himself indicated in Scripture). But in the end, the ends would not justify the means. If we have to pay additoinal taxes to support the unaborted children that is a fine trade off to cold-blooded murder.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 11:31 AM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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I don't think this person is saying the end justifies the means. The person is pointing out what could/would happen without justifying it.
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 1:56 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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And my point is that the numbers are really not the issue here. It could be 20,000 kids per day and that wouldn't make it any more tolerable to prematurely end one's time of grace.

Any solution is better than murder. The moment we agree on that, we can work toward productive solutions.

I think part of his argument is look, if those children weren't aborted we would have all these unwanted children to deal with. I think there is a bit of an attempt at "justification" in that sort of argument.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 2:18 PM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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There is no attempt at justification what I'm trying to get to is that, we have all had these abortion debates before nobody seems to be changing anybody's mind I am just asking the question because I think that it would be interesting to know if the anti abortionists got their way and abortion was made illegal today what would be the repercussions? do you have the answers to the questions I and others have asked above? I'm just wondering if the anti abortionists have a plan if abortion is made illegal? is it really just that you think peoples behaviour would change? or have there been plans made for all the unwanted babies?
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 2:45 PM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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Any plan would be better than legalized murder. Reforming adoption laws would be a good start.

The biggest reprecussion would be less children slaughtered. All the rest of the discussion really pales in comparison with that point. That's better than any plan the pro-murder folks might suggest.

As I mentioned before, I think a combination of behavior change and political action would result from such a law.

If there is no legalized abortion, women and men will have to seriously consider the possibility of pregnancy when they have sex. It will lead people to recognize that if you are not ready for the responsibility of a child, that perhaps they should wait to have sex until they are married.

At the very least, I imagine that it would also lead to more careful use of contraceptives by those who do still continue to live in the "sexually active" culture. So that also would lead to less unwanted pregnancies.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 3:00 PM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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Or they would just go to Canada or Mexico or order online abortion drugs or go to illegal abortion doctors have you any evidence it would go the way you sugest? it may be better to go the way of The Netherlands that have apparently the lowest abortion rates in the world where they have the most liberal sex education and contraceptive programs in the world, if your aim is to end the "slaugher" might it not be more productive to take a leaf out of their book?

P.s if you know the answers to the questions in my first post I would be interested in you answers.
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 4:18 PM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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I don't think any of us can know how it would go exactly. It would probably be a combination between what you said and what I said.

Does the Netherlands totals include the morning after pill and other drugs that kill the fetus post conception or prevent implantation? I'm guessing it doesn't. That's murder too, but it doesn't appear in the statistics.

So, no, I don't think a liberal sex ed program is the answer. The answer is to present sex as an activity that requires responsibility and commitment...ultimately marriage. It wasn't designed to be used (abused) in the way our current culture approaches it.

At the very least, if someone has to go to Mexico or Canada to receive an abortion, they've been inconvenienced in some way. Murder shouldn't be easy. And in the end, since I can't control what happens outside the borders of my country what happens in Canada and Mexico is kind of out of my sphere of influence, but I can influence what happens (or doesn't happen) within my country, and for that reason I would like to see legalized homicide banned here (except in very rare extreme cases where the mother's life is threatened).
MelFamy


Posts: 2,563
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 4:29 PM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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You draw a line in the sand when you use the term murder, friend. There can be no discussion when the terms are misused. Unless you are calling all women who had an abortion murderers? What about all women who had miscarriages? Are they guilty of negligent manslaughter? When a young fetus gets re-absorbed into the women's body, is she a cannibal?

The fact is, until birth, that fetus is a part of the Mother, it is her decision what to do with it, not yours, and certainly not the government's. Aren't they into our business enough?
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 4:58 PM   in response to: MelFamy in response to: MelFamy
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Yes, i will call those who get an abortion, murderers. Because they have murdered a human being.

A miscarriage is different (asssuming the woman was being responsable in the care of her child). In that instance it is God ending the life, not the woman.

Your "facts" don't jive with Sacred Scripture. It is God alone who has the right to begin and end life. Not me. Not the mother. Not the government. Just because the infant is inside of his/her mother doesn't change that fact.

It is you misusing the terms.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 5:52 PM   in response to: MelFamy in response to: MelFamy
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This is the problem with this debate that the terms the anti abortionists use might be inflammatory to you but it would be interesting to get past the debate of when life begins and the terms that both sides use and actually get to the reality of what would be should the anti-abortionists actually get into power its not so hypothetical can you imagine if a figure like Sarah Palin Or a Michael Bachman or even a Rick Santoram got to the top? in the case of Santorum its entirely possible I think he would agree that abortion is murder.

I think its safe to say that should abortion become illegal in the U.S it would be possible to detain a women who was attempting to get into Canada to obtain an abortion and detain them in some sort of custody to take their pregnancy to term it would be interesting to ask questions of the thinking of this passionate good lady of just how far they are prepared to go , so please lets not get bogged down and sidetracked over the language as usual or we may never learn exactly what they've got in mind.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 6:15 PM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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Why wouldn't the terms used by Biologists suffice ? They aren't as inflammatory to the general public as those used by anti choice people.

The forefathers of anti choice people {R Terry, J. Shiedler} instructed their "flocks" to use inflamatory words and signs for the express purpose of inflaming.

Terry has long been known for provocative and controversial statements, including that abortion is murder and should be made a capital crime.

The above paragraph from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_Terry
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 6:27 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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This isn't rhetoric. If you believe (as the Bible teaches) that life begins at conception, then abortion IS murder and SHOULD be punished accordingly.

That's just the thing, you want to take your definitions of life from biologists, while the group you so strongly oppose wants to make God the authority as to when life begins (and he clearly teaches conception). Who is more trustworthy, God or biologists....hmmmm...aren't we as Christians supposed to not be "of the world"? So why are we listening to the opinions of humanists within the science community rather than God?

That's a recipe for all sorts of trouble in one's faithlife and worldview.
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 2:20 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Deleted

Edited by: Shar M on Feb 19, 2012 3:20 PM
MelFamy


Posts: 2,563
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 2:44 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Here are a few examples of Randall Terry's thinking, as it were:

Our goal is a Christian Nation... we have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want Pluralism. We want theocracy. Theocracy means God rules. I've got a hot flash. God rules."

"We want our nation and all its institutions to be self-consciously built on the laws and principles of God's Word...We are at war -- a cultural civil war, a war of allegiances. If righteousness is going to prevail, if paganism is going to be turned back, then we must move to restore this nation to being a Christian Nation.

"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we'll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed."

And this is a quote by a fellow Talibabptist

"I would like to outlaw contraception¿contraception is disgusting - people using each other for pleasure."
Joseph Scheidler Pro-Life Action League August 1985
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 5:14 PM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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The terms you use for a woman ending a pregnancy are not a given' .

It illustrates "taking over the language"

Maybe in your opening paragraphs your post Could be considered:

Argumentum ad misericordiam (argument or appeal to pity}

I'm not sure but it does seem underlying.
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 5:35 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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They are a given if one defines human life in the way that Sacred Scripture does.

Psalm 51:5 and Exodus 21:22-25 suggest otherwise. The Exodus one hasn't been brought up before. In that passage, God addresses cases about what should happen in cases where a pregnant woman is struck. In that case he says that if the infant dies, it is "life for life", but if the infant survives the person would have to pay a fine.

The ones "taking over the language" are those who are seeking to supplant Scripture's teaching with societies teaching (aka...you are the guilty party).

And your argument would be a argumentum ad rationum hominum loco dei (an argument that appeals to human reason rather than God's - although you might want to double check my Latin, it's been a while since I dusted it off).
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 5:47 PM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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I can except "an argument that appeals to human reason" if the thought ends there. Otherwise you're pushing a religious concept on "society."

I think Jesus invited, he didn't push. Free will etc..
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 6:01 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Except when we are talking about an issue as crucial as the taking of human lives. Human beings being murdered who are incapable of speaking for themselves...then we do raise our voices and speak out.

What if the rest of "society" said it was ok to kill Jews? Would it be wrong to push my religious view that killing Jews is immoral? Or should I just shut up and go along with it?

You can't have it both ways. That would be an argumentum absurditum (an absurd argument).

Also did Jesus just shut up and accept how the people were using the temple as a market place? Or did he stand up against society and their wrongs? Did he perhaps even use a whip to get his point across?
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 6:37 PM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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Except when we are talking about an issue as crucial as the taking of human lives. Human beings being murdered who are incapable of speaking for themselves...then we do raise our voices and speak out.

The problem is , this is what the debate is about. Some of us don't agree human lives are being "murdered". There's where you want it to be a given.

What if the rest of "society" said it was ok to kill Jews? Would it be wrong to push my religious view that killing Jews is immoral? Or should I just shut up and go along with it?

The Jew have established personhood by being given a birth date so no it wouldn't be wrong. They are considered persons.

Also did Jesus just shut up and accept how the people were using the temple as a market place? Or did he stand up against society and their wrongs? Did he perhaps even use a whip to get his point across?

Jesus said: "Come to me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest"

In terms of proselytizing, he invited.

.
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 6:55 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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That's because some of you simply ignore the Bible passages that clearly say as much. God has ruled on this debate. He's a whole lot smarter than the biologists you constantly refer to.

Is it any wonder that all religious groups that take the inspiration of Scripture seriously are in agreement that the Bible teaches life at conception? Maybe that should be a clue about what God's opinion is on this discussion.

And the "birth date" of a child is the moment of conception, so it is no different than the Jew example. Trouble is, you aren't willing to actually consider the opposing viewpoint...which is why you go on and on about rhetoric. It isn't rhetoric..it is what we actually believe!

In this talk about abortion, my purpose has never been to convert others through the government. My only concern was the protecting of human life. Conversion doesn't come through legislation, but rather through God's Holy Word.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 7:11 PM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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That's because some of you simply ignore the Bible passages that clearly say as much. God has ruled on this debate. He's a whole lot smarter than the biologists you constantly refer to.

Again that is what the debate is about.

"And the "birth date" of a child is the moment of conception, so it is no different than the Jew example. Trouble is, you aren't willing to actually consider the opposing viewpoint...which is why you go on and on about rhetoric. It isn't rhetoric..it is what we actually believe!"

Where have I gone on and on about rhetoric ?

The Bible says for a man to be able to go to war he had to be twenty years of age, or a priest to commence his official duties had to be thirty years of age. These ages were always reckoned from birth, not from conception.

"Conversion doesn't come through legislation, but rather through God's Holy Word."

I agree. And that thru invitation.

A good movie on with Bert Lancaster. about a train
.
Later. For the most part it's been interesting.
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 7:26 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Ok...I was using "birth date" as a synonym for "life". In retrospect, probably should have been more specific in my use of terms since "birth date would technically involve the birthing process.

How do you ignore Exodus 21 and Psalm 51? Why do you reject what nearly every single churchbody that views the Bible as inspired by God agrees to be true? Perhaps that is something you need to personally reflect on and discuss with your pastor.

Even if you are willing to admit that the passages create some doubt in your mind about when life starts, with such doubt present it is only moral to err on the side of protecting human life. Is it not?

Has your heart become so callous that you can not view those Bible passages and even consider the idea that they might in fact teach that life begins well before birth?
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 9:52 PM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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That's because some of you simply ignore the Bible passages that clearly say as much.

no we don't. God has ruled on this debate.

your opinion

+He's a whole lot smarter than the biologists you constantly refer to.++

I agree God is infinitely smarter then anyone of us but I'm not so sure I constantly refer to Biologists. Only If they fit into the debate, I will call on them.

Is it any wonder that all religious groups that take the inspiration of Scripture seriously are in agreement that the Bible teaches life at conception? Maybe that should be a clue about what God's opinion is on this discussion.

Theologians have argued for centuries about when life begins without reaching agreement on the answer yet , you want me to except your opinion because some theologians relatively of late have made that decision. I don't think so.

Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 2:58 PM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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After reading his response, I think the answer is---- no.
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 4:25 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Neither does he. Point is no one here has any evidence to suggest how things would go. It's a hypothetical situation, so the best we can do is make a few educated guesses as to what might (or might not) happen. Clearly, you don't agree with my educated guess. Perhaps you could come up with your own, rather than make dismissive comments?
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 5:20 PM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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If I thought I could I would have. I'm more interested in listening to others ideas before I form my own and I may never form my own on this subject.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 5:25 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Does the LCMS President Harrison use those terms?
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 10:43 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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1) I'm not LCMS, so my knowledge of your synod president is limited.
2) But based on his reputation, I think he would share the same vocabulary, yes. He did speak pretty strongly against abortion the other day at the hearing so it is clear he shares the same sentiment.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 5:30 AM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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Sentiment yes no doubt. I reread the speech,vocabulary no. And,in a following interview he said he was angry which IMO is understandable.
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 7:17 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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I've almost never heard a better definition of a critic than this post. Forgive me if I hear it wrongly, but it seems like you are saying, "I'm not going to formulate my own opinion, but I will rail against everyone elses. I won't stick my neck out there to offer anything, but I'll freely dismiss those who take that risk."

BTW, the best definition of a critic that I've ever heard is, "One who comes off the mountain after the battle is over and shoots the wounded."
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 2:43 PM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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I've almost never heard a better definition of a critic than this post.

Which post ?

Forgive me if I hear it wrongly,

I think you hear me wrongly.
Please show me the post you are referring to and in it's context so I can try to sort this out.
I'd particularly like to know who I'm railing against about what.

TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 3:07 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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If I thought I could I would have. I'm more interested in listening to others ideas before I form my own and I may never form my own on this subject.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 3:23 PM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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Thank you Hawg.

I don't see where I'm railing against anyone in that post. Could you point out to me what I said that looks to you as tho. I'm railing against someone ?
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 3:41 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Turtletoes,

Perhaps railing wasn't the best choice of words; however, I will stick with it because railing isn't exactly the point of my post.

The point being--I perceive that I am observing a person who will criticize other's work without taking any risk to define her own position. As such, she seems to seek the safety and security of critiquing stuff she doesn't like about other's positions without ever taking a personal stand. Hence the second definition of critic which I put forward.

Perhaps people become comfortable doing such things, but in my personal viewpoint, I prefer to deal with people who are willing to take risks, define their own positions, open themselves up to criticism instead of seeking to always point out the perceived fault's of another's position. (Which you have done a few times on this particular thread.)
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 4:20 PM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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Perhaps railing wasn't the best choice of words; however, I will stick with it because railing isn't exactly the point of my post.

Then I will go on record here and now to say --I did not rail.

I won't contribute to something I know little about [other then asking questions or pointing to things I am familiar with in the context of this particular thread and not in a "railing way "}
and I don't see where I have criticized others again, in the context of this particular thread. Also, I don't know how I can define a position when I don't know the position I will take and am still looking for some answers.
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 9:20 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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I have just reread many of your responses to me in this post. Sure sounds like railing to me and sure looks like you have a position.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 10:55 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Of course you do. I wouldn't expect anything else.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 10:58 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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I've learned , if I said it was white, you sayl it was black.
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 9:15 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Gee, and all this time I thought it was you disagreeing with me.
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 9:15 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Turtletoes, if you want to know which post Hawg was responding to, click on his name and it will take you back to your original post.
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 11:15 AM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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Don't you feel your definition of critic is rather sinister? Perhaps this explains the nastiness of this site.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 2:25 PM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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I think I understand what your point is and I still maintain he is not justifying the issue . Just pointing out what would happen if it were made illegal today.

Giving us all something to think about. What conclusions are drawn if any conclusions are drawn is another thing.
Evelyn203


Posts: 125
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 11:04 PM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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Guys are fully aware that they may be supporting a chid for 18 years (or more). If you think that will stop them, talk to Track Palin. He married in May 2011 and their child was born in August 2011, Willow is now 16 and wanting to get out.. Wonder how abstinance is working for her?
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 3:05 PM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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If abortion was made illegal today what would happen ?

Intriguing hypothetical, but that's all it is at this point: a hypothetical. Kind of in the same vein as: if the U.S. Constitution's freedom of religion clause were thrown out, what would happen? Fun to discuss but irrelevant because oftentime the things we try to predict have a very different outcome than anticipated. All one need do is look at any law which gets put on the books.

Would all those babies born be adopted ?

The assumption you make is that behavior will not change. What if it does and fewer babies are born than you believe?

Would a women whom aborted her own baby be tried for murder ?

Who knows? Or would the doctor who performed said abortion be relieved of his medical liscense? Will a facility that performs abortions be shut down? The assumption is that this is the only punishment available. What if there are alternatives?

Could a woman be prevented from leaving the country if she was going to Canada for an abortion?

The assumption you make is that one can readily discern one's motivations for leaving to get said procedure. As such, it really is a rather odd question, don't you think?

Edited by: TheHawg on Feb 18, 2012 3:05 PM
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 3:29 PM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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I agree it is an intriguing hypothetical but I am interested in discussing it . Its that simple I don't know what would happen I don't Know if it would change behaviour is there any evidence that it would or wouldn't I am simply asking the questions I am interested in what people think would happen. It does raise some interesting questions such as the ones I and others have asked.
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 18, 2012 8:08 PM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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I don't Know if it would change behaviour is there any evidence that it would or wouldn't

But isn't that the crux of the matter? Would changing the law prevent unwanted pregnancy more and cause people to be more responsible with sexual behavior?

Say perhaps it did. Those who chose to engage in sexual behavior outside of marriage decided to use condoms and other methods to prevent pregnancy. Fewer children are born outside of wedlock. The rates of sexually transmitted diseases plummet. Perhaps there is an increase in birth rates; however, as an adoptive parent, I can assure you there are many families waiting for children.

The down side: there are more back room abortions. Unfortunately, there will be infections and some deaths because of such things. It's a horrible consequence, but will the total number of death's be reduced? (And I am assuming an aborted fetus = a death.)

On the other side of the coin is what happened during the prohibition years. Outlawing liquer caused a spike in its usage. Would such a thing occur by changing the laws? Who knows?

Perhaps in order to address such thoughts, one would have to go back and check out the statistics before Roe v. Wade and afterward. However, much has changed societally since that decision, and many variables are not the same.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 5:44 AM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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I agree with you we dont know if changing the law in the U.S would change behaviour, but we can look at which countries have the lowest abortion rates and copy what they do hopefully to bring the extremely high rates of abortion down in America, the lowest rates seem to be in the Netherlands if cutting the rates of abortions is the goal wouldn't it make sense to follow their methods?
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 5:56 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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Once again, is it possible that the Netherlands has such a low rate of abortion because they use abortive pills? That is abortion too, but it is not counted in the statistics. So, I don't know how you can say with any certainty that the abortion rate is necesarily lower. They may just go about aborting babies more frequently with pharmecuticals. Trying to justify your viewpoint with numbers that don't include all of the available data is an example of a faulty argument.

Truth is we don't know what the numbers are in any country, because we can't be sure how many pregnancies were pharmecutically terminated.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 6:35 AM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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Why do you suspect that the morning after pill is used more in the Netherlands isnt the morning after pill available in the U.S ?
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 7:06 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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A quick look. It's available in the U.S. Under

17 yrs. of age need a prescription.

I think there was/is a movement to get rid of it all together.


Costs about $50.00.

http://www.drugstore.com/plan-b-one-step-emergency-contraceptive-must-be-17-or-over-to-purchase-without-a-prescription/qxp161395?catid=183040&aid=336064&aparam=morning-after%20pill&scinit1=morning-after%20pill

Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,233
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 7:17 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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In Wikipedia under:

"Relationship to high risk sex and abortion and further cataggories,
there are some interesting studies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_contraception
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 7:13 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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The assumption, I think, being made is that folks share the same ideals, goals, understandings, and assumptions across the board. I have learned very quickly in life that such things are not the case. Therefore, the simple answer is, "No." What works well in the Netherlands does not translate into working well in the U.S.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 4:08 PM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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"No." What works well in the Netherlands does not translate into working well in the U.S.

Well it seems to me that if the goal is to reduce the abortion rate in the U.S then trying something that has worked elsewhere is at least worth a try considering that the status quo has no chance of working.

Over 4000 abortions everyday in the U.S.A.

Do you believe that is 4000 babies MURDERED everyday as Santo does?
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 19, 2012 9:17 PM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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You didn't ask me but, yes. 4000 babies murdered.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 6:27 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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"yes. 4000 babies murdered. "

Murder is a very serious crime not sure you still advocate the death penalty I know your postitions are very changeable apperently you now think the Iraq war was a mistake even though you were Bush's chief cheerleader at the time. So do you still believe in the death penalty? if so would you advocate it for an abortion doctor ? Would you charge the woman with Murder or just as an accomplise to murder? would you prevent a woman from travelling to Canada if there was proof she was going there for an abortion? would she be put into custody until the pregnancy comes to term?

Have you any friends or family who have "murdered" thier babies ? would you like to see these woman in prison? or excuted if you still are for the death penalty?

Seems to me that if you really believe abortion is murder it would make it very difficult for you to wave that stars and stripes I mean how could you be proud of a country that lets 4000 babies everyday be "murdered"?
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 8:18 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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I don't think the Canada thing is enforceable. But I would hold as responsible for murder those who murder their own babies (I think both the woman and the doctor could be tried for murder...just as in the case where someone pays a hitman to kill someone).

I think it should be prosecuted as any other murder would be. The death penalty would certainly be an option in the states where that is a legal form of punishment (since God gives the government that right in cases where human life is taken). I have a feeling that the more common punishment would be a longer jail sentence.

I don't think any of us are proud about our country's callous attitude toward infanticide. It's why we fight so hard to see the laws of our country changed to defend human life.
wanderer


Posts: 5,053
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 9:01 AM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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who is going to pay for all these prisons to house all those murderers? what a mess it would make of the court system to try all these people - not to mention coming up with juries. i can't imagine coming up with enough jurors to convict these people. 4000 a day times 5 days a week times 52 weeks is one heck of a lot of trials. lots of people missing work because of jury duty. i am sure employers will be happy with that. i think unworkable in our judicial system today. imagine the judges we would have to hire and put on the payroll. and more lawyers etc. most of this is paid for by the taxpayer i believe. we have a civil case going on right now - incident was in Jan 2011 and it will probably be at least another year until we get to trial - hopefully it is settled out of court.

life is not black and white - for me aborting a child is murder - but that is for me. not necessarily for the next person. i have two relatives and a friend who have had abortions. incidently two of them were Lutheran - one of which i prefer not to be around as they are such bible thumpers - they are good productive people and why should i have to pay tax money to have them incarcerated - and since it was a married couple - should both of them be incarcerated? especially since they feel differently about abortion than i do and furthermore - all three are employed taxpayers.

when catholic hospitals refuse to pay for birth control and or abortion for their employees, whether they are catholic or not - isn't that forcing their religion on their employees? doesn't that go against the freedom of religion? such a sticky wicket this has become.

we don't want any of our tax money to pay for birth control or abortions - yet we are wiling to pay thousands to incarcerate these people? makes no cents to me.
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 9:25 AM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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wanderer,

who is going to pay for all these prisons to house all those murderers? what a mess it would make of the court system to try all these people - not to mention coming up with juries. i can't imagine coming up with enough jurors to convict these people. 4000 a day times 5 days a week times 52 weeks is one heck of a lot of trials.

Relax a minute here. The assumption you are making (which apaul led you to accept) is that the rate of abortion would remain the same. If the laws are changed, do you really think there would be this many abortions per day? Or, would people's behavior change? If hospitals and clinics were banned from performing abortions, would as many people continue to seek them out? This is the elephant in the room that is not being dealt with with most of the postings. If indeed abortion was outlawed and the rate of abortion decreased substantially, then there would be no need for so many court cases.

life is not black and white - for me aborting a child is murder - but that is for me. not necessarily for the next person.

There is an inherent problem in this statement. While I agree with the first sentiment--life indeed is not black and white, the second part becomes more problematic for it heads right into relativity. Who is to say then that the practice of honor killing is wrong especially if those who practice it do not see it as such? Which leads to the next statement:

when catholic hospitals refuse to pay for birth control and or abortion for their employees, whether they are catholic or not - isn't that forcing their religion on their employees? doesn't that go against the freedom of religion? such a sticky wicket this has become.

Yes, it does mean forcing their religious understanding on their employees. However, there are a couple of things that are at play: these are Catholic hospitals, and employees have a choice to work for them or not. A Christian chef would not become employed by a kosher deli and then demand to cook bacon because he/she has freedom of religion. By definition the Roman Catholic Church is against birth control, and unless they change their own stance, then they should have the freedom to practice their doctrines at the institutions they run. The freedom clause in the Constitution states the government shall neither impose religious belief nor prohibit it's free expression. By forcing religious insititutions to go against their stated doctrine, the government is clearly overstepping its bounds here.
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 9:32 AM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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It makes all the sense in the world. You don't believe that murderers should be inprisoned? Maybe we should let people go who kill aduls too, since it is going to cost us tax dollars to put them into prison. Murder (whether of an infant or an adult) should carry harsh consequences.

Logically, were abortion declared to be murder, 4000 women per day are not going to continue to get an abortion. The whole idea that this is going to overwhelm our court system is ridiculous. With a murder sentence attached to it, that is going to be a strong discouragement for women to go ahead with their murderous plans. I don't think you put a lot of time thinking that argument through.

Yes, they should be incarcerated, because they took a human life. When God's Word says that it is black and white, who are you (or who am I) to disagree. That is arrogance.

A religion shouldn't have to pay for murder. If a person wants to act in that way, they can certainly do using their own funds. No one is forcing people to not have the abortion or abortive birth control. They just are saying that as a religious organization we have the right not to pay for something we morally disagree with. That is religious freedom. The government has no right to force a religious organization to pay for something that they are morally opposed to.
wanderer


Posts: 5,053
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 10:00 AM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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well, since you say i didn't put much thought into that answer - i won't put much thought into a reply.

i do that which is best for me and try to live according to my faith. my glasses do not see black and white - but many many shades of gray.
i do not see where incarcerating women who have had an abortion is the answer. nor do i see repealing roe wade as an answer. i guess faith should be the answer - but beating people over the head to see your side of "faith" isn't going to work either.

right now the sun is shining and the beach is calling - so i will let all you experts decide this case.

enjoy
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 10:03 AM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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Hi Wanderer I have to to agree with Santo on this if your position is that abortion is murder just as bad as say taking a gun and shooting a newborn then it is inconsistent not to send these women to prison for a very long time just as you would with someone whom shoots and kills a child.
wanderer


Posts: 5,053
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 10:32 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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sorry - i just cannot tell these women what to do with their bodies. what i believe is not necessarily what the whole world believes. what works for me doesn't necessarily work for others. the couple i know that had an abortion were very faithful - sometimes obsessive - their choice was theirs - i cannot tell them what to do or condemm them. i often wondered what christmas was like for them with all our little kids running around - and theirs was not - it was several years before they had another child - and then the young woman that had an abortion two days before graduation - and now 3 years later has two more little children - and no husband. pops them out like clockwork. life is not easy . . .

was just talking with the boss about the trial thing for abortion - he said he would do everything in his power to get off that jury - as would I. I would have to let God judge a woman who had had an abortion. Yesterday in church the minister read the statement that the president of LCMS made. We did not discuss it at all after church - something very unusual - because we are so torn and do not have the wisdom of Solomon to decide this matter. We just do not know.

for me - taking the life of the baby is murder - i could never do it - but i also believe that having a baby out of wedlock is also sinful - as is adultery - and i sure don't see these folks on this board rally around for incarceration or a trial for adultery. perhaps if we had stricter penalities for adultery - there would be less need of abortions. life is a jumble - lots and lots of gray. for me, i will let God decide. and i believe that we all sin and do wrong - and that forgiveness is out there. abortion is something i have a real hard time wrapping my thoughts around - what to do, what to do?

how is that for a copout?

hope this horrible weather over there isn't affecting you too much. talked with family near London - and they are doing ok. haven't heard from the ones in scotland.

guess the boss is ready and we are off. enjoy your day.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 10:22 AM   in response to: santolaguna in response to: santolaguna
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Your position does seem to me to be entirely logical and consistent if you really do believe that abortion is murder even in the case of the morning after pill. Slightly inconsistent if you still believe in executing people.

Do you think it could be justified to kill an abortion doctor to prevent him from doing his days work (maybe 10 appointments) or would you be against that because your forbidden from killing people? or maybe kidnapping him/her for a few days to stop him carrying out those "murders" would that be acceptable to you?

I guess its almost the same argument that people sometimes ask "would you have killed Hitler had you the chance?" after all it may have saved allot of peoples lives.
santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 10:49 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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I, personally, am not given the authority by God to kill anyone. So, no. I would not kill any doctors or kidnap them. To do so would be to ignore the order that God has placed in society.

However, God (in a demonstration of the seriousness of those who take human life) does allow for the government to kill those who are guilty of taking the life of another. In such a case it is not murder, but rather a consequence of a specific sin and God has given the authority to the government to carry out such consequences when it sees fit in Scripture. God is the one who decides when life begins and ends, and if he has given such a right to the government according to his divine will, who are we to deny that?

I'm being consistent with how God speaks on the matter, and that's really the "consistency" that matters in this discussion.
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 9:02 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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No, I do not advocate the death penalty, have not for some time. Yes, I did originally support the war in Iraq but I hardly considered myself Bush's "chief cheerleader." I found a lot of fault with him along the way, particularly in his spending but I thought he handled 9/11 as well as anyone could have. Yes, I have had friends who have had abortions. Most of them regret it deeply. If any of my relatives have had abortions, I am not aware of it. My brother's girlfriend had an abortion many years ago. He regretted it then and regrets it now.

As for preventing a woman from going to Canada, how would anyone know for what purpose a woman was going to Canada? I don't think that's a position that anyone would attempt to enforce. Even when abortions were illegal, it was common knowledge that women went abroad for that purpose and many women went to California when it was the first state that allowed abortions.

As for my opinions being very changeable, I don't change my positions often but when I do I'm the first to admit it. I consider that I continue to learn and I've learned a lot about the death penalty in the last few years. I've also learned a lot about abortions which has made my position stronger not weaker.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 9:45 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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"As for preventing a woman from going to Canada, how would anyone know for what purpose a woman was going to Canada?"

Well she may have told the father or maybe he'd overheard her making an appointment e.t.c after that Terry shivaro (sp) it doesn't seem inconceivable that the woman could be held under protective custody until her pregnancy came to term.

Im glad you have changed your opinion on the death penalty I think we can thank Gramps for making you see the light on that one and Iraq.

Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 11:04 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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I don't think there is anywhere on this board where I have supported the death penalty. I began to rethink that at the time of the Innocence Project. Gramps had nothing to do with that or with my changing my position on Iraq. If anything, I probably tried to support it longer since his claims against George Bush were so outrageous. But I was disillusioned about George Bush and changed my position on the war some time before his term ended. The lives lost sadden me.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 11:11 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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I think I first came on here almost 15 years ago I certainly remember you used to be pro death penalty I don't know how far the search facility goes back when did you change your mind on the issue?
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 11:21 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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I believe you have been on this board longer than I, apaul, although I can't be certain. I seem to remember you appearing a time or two when I first began posting. I came on through my friend, Troudy, and it seems the two of you already knew one another at that time. I don't believe I have ever supported the death penalty on this board. I began to change my mind with the results achieved by the Innocence Project and that was sometime in the early 90's. I know I had a very poor opinion of Barry Sheck after the O.J. trial and changed my mind when he started the Innocence Project. See, one more time when I changed my opinion, and I freely admit it.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 11:25 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Nothing wrong in changing your opinion why wouldn't you especially on the two issues I cited your getting more liberal in your old age.
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 11:43 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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Not too likely as I started as a Democrat back in the Kennedy days and remained a Democrat until the late 90's.

I also want to clarify my opinion on the death penalty. There are some murderers who certainly deserve death or worse, especially those convicted of violent crimes, crimes against children, etc. I certainly believe the state has the right to impose the death penalty if that is the law in a given state. But in many ways, I feel life in prison, with no chance for parole, is a far worse penalty than death. Plus the millions of dollars spent on myriad appeals can be put to better use. The chance, however slight, of putting an innocent man to death is enough to sway my opinion.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 12:10 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Well I think we are more or less agreed about the death penalty but don't feel bad for taking these liberal positions I think as I've aged I've become slightly more conservative on some issues so its all still in the balance as it were. I think I must have first posted around the time you first did so I may have just assumed you had been on longer, to be honest most of you have changed your names once or twice I'm never sure if they are new or just posting under another name do you remember Dr who? and Mom are they still here? what about Gloria and Joe? confused.
Shar M


Posts: 15,879
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 12:49 PM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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No, I have the same name alhough I'm not sure I used the initial M early on. Gloria has not been here for some time. I tried to email her a year or so ago and got no response. She was quite elderly so I am afraid she may have passed on. Joe was here for awhile but he remarried very happily and doesn't have time for us anymore. He used to stick his head in every year or two but no longer. He and his new bride took a cross country trip about two or three years ago so a number of us got to meet him. I think he is very happy in his new marriage.

Dr. Who was here when I first came but he no longer posts. Although I have heard of Mom, she was before my time. I do remember a kind of kooky lady named Joan. We get some odd ones every once in awhile. By that I mean odder than the rest of us.

You are probably aware that Harriet passed away last year. We all miss her. Although she and I were pretty much at the opposite ends of the pole politically, we became good friends. Her husband, Grumpy, who originally went by another name, is still around occasionally. Other than gramps, I can't think of who else has been here for a very long time.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 10:29 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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I think you were Bush's chief cheerleader on Iraq it wasn't until Bush left office that you seemed to backtrack your position.

Don't agree? then when do you think you changed your mind on Iraq?
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 8:30 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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Well it seems to me that if the goal is to reduce the abortion rate in the U.S then trying something that has worked elsewhere is at least worth a try considering that the status quo has no chance of working.

I agree the status quo has no chance of working, and I also agree that something should be done. But, there is little evidence that because something has worked under one set of conditions that it necessarily follows that it will work under another set of conditions. Approaching it from a scientific standpoint, one would say, "The variables are totally different." One must deal with the variables under which one finds oneself, and the variables in the U.S. are far different from the variables in the Netherlands--or do you wish to dispute this?

Do you believe that is 4000 babies MURDERED everyday as Santo does?

I do not see where this question is relevant to my points, or are you seeking to draw me into an area where you are more comfortable arguing?
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 9:54 AM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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How do you you see "the variables" being different between the Nederlands and the U.S that would make the Dutch solution not work in the U.S?


"I do not see where this question is relevant to my points, or are you seeking to draw me into an area where you are more comfortable arguing?"

I just wanted to see how far right on this issue you are as your not prepared to call abortion murder evidently not as far right as I thought or maybe you dont want to take such an extreme position with the the likelihood you would probably have some "murderers" in your own flock.

santolaguna

Posts: 44
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 10:17 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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I would say that every flock has murders...seeing the way Jesus himself defined the term in Matthew 5:21-22.

We as Christians should not be afraid of calling "sin" what God calls "sin". Recognizing our sin is what shows us our need for a Savior, yes, even a Savior from our murderous thoughts, words, and actions.

The opposite would be to pretend that murder didn't happen (for fear of causing offense). Trouble is that either produces Pharisees who are unaware of their sin, or "sin-embrassing" Christians who feel that they can do whatever they want with no consquences.

The law must be preached and directly or else the Gospel serves no purpose.
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 10:19 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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How do you you see "the variables" being different between the Nederlands and the U.S that would make the Dutch solution not work in the U.S?

Do you see the Dutch culture and the American culture being the same?

I just wanted to see how far right on this issue you are as your not prepared to call abortion murder evidently not as far right as I thought or maybe you dont want to take such an extreme position with the the likelihood you would probably have some "murderers" in your own flock.

Or maybe, I choose not to reveal it because I understand, unlike many others, that you and I come from totally different undergirding assumptions when it comes to this issue. I recognize very clearly that these undergirding assumptions lead us to very different conclusions, and no matter how much you and I would try to argue, we would not reach any sort of conclusion because our assumptions will not allow us to do so.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 10:47 AM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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"Do you see the Dutch culture and the American culture being the same?"

No not the same but similar and as you have agreed with me that the status quo is not working and in all likilehood abortion will not be made illegal in the U.S have you a practical alternative that may work?
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 10:59 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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No not the same but similar and as you have agreed with me that the status quo is not working and in all likilehood abortion will not be made illegal in the U.S have you a practical alternative that may work?

Depends upon your definition of practical.
apaul


Posts: 507
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 11:04 AM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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I'm all ears.
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 2:28 PM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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Not a definition I've ever heard. :-)
Grumpy


Posts: 1,177
Re: If it was made illegal today
Posted: Feb 20, 2012 8:58 AM   in response to: apaul in response to: apaul
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I would have said that we'd be back to 1960 before it was made legal. But I suspect there are other factors that make that an under statement to simplistic.

The birth rate in the US in 1960 was 23.7 per 1,000...........the infant mortality rate was 26.0 per 1,000.
The brith rate in the US in 1970 was 18.4 .........the infant mortality rate was 20.0
The birth rate in the US in 1973 was 14.8 ........ the infant mortality rate was 17.6 .
The birth rate in the US in 2008 was 14.8.........the infant mortality rate was 6.6

Yes infants didn't fare well in 1960 but we now have NICUs and technology to keep a lot of babies alive that would have expired in 1960. The death rate for adults went down too but not so dramatic 9.5 to 8.1. I'm sure changing economy, and desires are part of the declining birth rate but you also have to include the affect of aborted pregancies. Remember Row v Wade was 1973. I think the 1960 spike in births was due more to the early baby boomers coming of age and not abortion. It was declining to 1973 and then hangs out around 14 for the whole time.

I know abortions would still happen even if the federal law was recended and it was left up to the states. Because that is the way it was and some ladies would travel to get the deed done.

The birth rate did not go down as much as the "survival" rate went up in reduced death rates among those allowed to be born.