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Permlink Replies: 104 - Last Post: Mar 11, 2009 1:46 PM Last Post By: wanderer
Sean


Posts: 6,519
America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 24, 2009 9:22 AM
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Some interesting numbers from the NYT/CBS poll released yesterday. It seems that despite the best attempts of the right-wing noise machine, the American people are backing Barack Obama and the Democratic agenda and want Republicans to get in line and work with the President to implement his agenda, not the other way around.

6. Do you think Barack Obama is trying to work with Republicans in Congress in order to get things done, or isn't he?

* Work with Reps 74%

* Not work with Reps 20%


+7. Do you think Republicans in Congress are trying to work with Barack Obama in order to get things done, or aren't they? +

* Work with Obama 31%

* Not work with Obama 57%


23. So far, do you think Barack Obama is trying to bring about real change in the way things are done in Washington, or isn't he doing that?

* Is bringing change 77%

* Is not 18%

48. Which do you think should be a higher priority for Barack Obama right now - working in a bipartisan way with Republicans in Congress or sticking to the policies he promised he would during the campaign?

* Working bipartisan way 39%

  • Sticking to policies 56%

49. Which do you think should be a higher priority for Republicans in Congress right now - working in a bipartisan way with Barack Obama and Democrats in Congress or sticking to Republican policies?

* Working bipartisan way 79%

* Sticking to policies 17%

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20090224poll-results.pdf

Gloria


Posts: 4,393
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 24, 2009 9:44 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Sean
I assume that you will not attend the Chicago Tea Party in July when we angry Americans will throw Obama's program into Lake Michigan.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 24, 2009 9:49 AM   in response to: Gloria in response to: Gloria
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I assume that you will not attend the Chicago Tea Party in July when we angry Americans will throw Obama's program into Lake Michigan.

No, I won't be there. You and the other dead-enders can have a swell old time, though.

It's nice to see the Republican hypocrisy on the stimulus, though. That Bobby Jindal is really taking a principled stand by only taking $3.6 billion of the $3.7 billion allotted to his state!
wanderer


Posts: 5,077
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 24, 2009 10:35 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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ooh, i can access LOL and even more I CAN POST!!! hallelujah! thank you tech wizards at LOL!


hmm, tea party in july huh?

i am impressed! sort of like not take .1 bil of the stimulus. puny little protest.

if they are really upset about this stimulus PROTEST NOW! go out in Lake Michigan right now - and really make your anger known.

don't be wimps and put it off until July. act now!

MelFamy


Posts: 2,563
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 24, 2009 11:33 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Sean, two weeks ago, things looked so dismal that 2/3 of my company's boats were tied up, the crews let go. Our boat was almost added to the mothball fleet, but business has suddenly started showing feeble signs of life, and now one boat is being brought back into service as of tomorrow. Shipments of steel products and cement are increasing, as is fertilizer, all of which we push along the Gulf Coast. We aren't out of the woods yet, but the panic is starting to dissipate, in our industry, at least. Gloria and her ilk may look a bit foolish come July.
SoNiceKarma


Posts: 21
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 24, 2009 5:12 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Calling names - yep, your a democrat
MelFamy


Posts: 2,563
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 24, 2009 8:25 PM   in response to: SoNiceKarma in response to: SoNiceKarma
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SoNiceKarma wrote:
Calling names - yep, your a democrat

That is as silly as assuming that your bad grammar and punctuation means that you're a Republican.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 8:24 AM   in response to: SoNiceKarma in response to: SoNiceKarma
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I was only adopting Rumsfeldian terminology. I figured that would be something conservatives would understand and appreciate. My sincerest apologies for offending your tender sensiblities.
Nancy1


Posts: 243
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 8, 2009 11:03 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Hey... can we leave Chicago out of this... we have been through enough already! We're just starting to try and get back to a semi-normal existence around here... We don't even have positive representation yet!
PhilCollins

Posts: 302
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 24, 2009 11:15 AM   in response to: Gloria in response to: Gloria
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I'll attend the Chicago Tea Party, this Friday. It will start at noon, at 65 W. Washington, and it will end at 435 N. Michigan Ave.
PhilCollins

Posts: 302
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 24, 2009 11:14 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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All of the stimulus poll results, that I read, state that the majority of Americans disapprove of the law because it's too expensive and/or unconstitutional.
Sean


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Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 24, 2009 11:38 AM   in response to: PhilCollins in response to: PhilCollins
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I think that says more about what you read than it does about actual public opinion.

Edited by: Sean on Feb 24, 2009 11:39 AM
opto86

Posts: 772
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 24, 2009 4:19 PM   in response to: PhilCollins in response to: PhilCollins
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Yes, and the stock market is no fan or socialized market reform, either.

It lost 10% in the last two weeks so it's not at all encouraged about Obama's econometric plan

However, it recovered 3.2% today only after comments from Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke tried to reassure that there would not be bank takeover. However, a 40% takeover of Citibank will be announced Wednesday, then expect another stock market decline.

Obama poll numbers are normal for a 1 month presidency, however they are declining.

A recent Rasmusson poll indicated 58% approval with 40% disapproval.

And more Americans feel we are on the wrong track 60% to 34%.

Obama operates on principles that reward the reckless and punish hardworking Americans. And, in just 1 month he has severely assaulted our capital markets. His future economic plans are even less encouraging so unless he changes course, it will decline. That's not change we can believe in.
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 24, 2009 6:31 PM   in response to: opto86 in response to: opto86
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Opto

I fail to see how the proposed tax breaks and the ones just passed are an assault on hard working Americans.

I also fail to see how he has assaulted our stock market. The actual assault on the market began long before he became president. Back in 2003 Bush was warned the market could crash--AND HE DID NOTHING!! The hemorraging of the market began on Bush's watch. Obama is trying to stem the flow.Let's put the blame were it is due.

The proposed 40% takeover of Citibank will actually help restore confidence in the bank. What the government is proposing is it will convert its preferred stock into common stock which will mean that it will no longer expect to be paid first if the bank liquidates. This means the government will be on par with other investors--hardly an assault on hard working Americans. As the bank shores up its capital base the government will sell the stock it owns back into the market. It is a pretty risky move, but something tells me the government feels it is worth the risk. The news allowed Citibank stock to jump 30 cents today.

I do believe he needs to be more assertive with his economic plans. For one I would like to see a follow up plan that will actually be focussed 100% on infrastucture. He made a big mistake when he allowed the Dem's to add on all their pet projects while trying to appease the Republicans with their tax breaks. The Chinese economy is coming back to life because it focused its $500 billion stimulus package solely on infrastructure. We can learn from them.

The good news is Obama is adaptable, unlike the previous president who would never admit he was wrong on anything.

The previous president got us in a very deep hole. I cannot think of anyone else better prepared to get us out of it than the current president.
opto86

Posts: 772
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 9:57 AM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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As the bank shores up its capital base the government will sell the stock it owns back into the market. It is a pretty risky move, but something tells me the government feels it is worth the risk. The news allowed Citibank stock to jump 30 cents today.

Bernanke is backing away from nationalization of banks unless its absolutely neccessary. However, even a public private mix is risky for capital markets. Hopefully the stress test of the top 20 banks will demonstrate financial solvency without government intervention.

The conversion from preferred stocks to common stocks owned by the government is a shell game. It's good for accounting but not sustainable economically. Remember Enron, so cooking the books does not work and now even worse with taxpayers on the hook.

This AM the Dow is down again 170 or 2.2%
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 8:12 AM   in response to: opto86 in response to: opto86
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And more Americans feel we are on the wrong track 60% to 34%.

You are aware of where that figure was before the election, right? (Hint: The number of folks who thought we are on the wrong track was much higher)

Obama operates on principles that reward the reckless and punish hardworking Americans.

This is just absurd. This economic crisis was created by laissez-faire capitalism run amok. To hear this sort of talk makes me angry.

Conservative theory says that those who work hard get ahead. This economic crisis was caused by people not working hard, but by unethical people gaming the system. Billions of dollars were made by people making loans that shouldn't have been made and then buying and selling financial derivatives that had no real value. These very same folks were protected by the conservative no-regulation state that made it possible for these phony financial products to be created and sold. And even given the lax rules and regulations that were in place, the conservative no-regulation state refused to enforce even those -- like in the Bernie Madoff case where the SEC ignored several tips about his Ponzi scheme. These very same folks were given tax breaks so that their ill-gotten gains would be taxed at 15%, instead of the rate real wage earners make. And when it all came crashing down on them, these very same folks crawled to the government and their paid handlers dutifully wrote them the check.

And instead of cracking down on those who created this mess in the first place and making them actually pay for what they have done and repay the damage they inflicted on society, you'd rather throw the book at the folks who tried to get in on the action in their own limited way by trying to buy a house. These are the same people who have been working hard for the last three decades and have seen their wages stagnate, while the very wealthy have seen an explosion of riches. Families have been forced to maintain their standards of living by having women flood into the workplace and working more hours, while the rich get more and more tax cuts. And instead of holding accountable the people who made this mess, you'd rather whine and complain and moan about the problems Obama has created. What a joke!

The stimulus plan and the various bailouts aren't perfect bills. But they're a heck of a lot better than what was going on before Obama was in office, when the Administration was only worried about catering to its wealthy fat cat cronies and doing nothing to help real people. And it's the selfish attitudes of conservatives -- displayed in the whining about Obama's actions that shows just how small that ideology has become.
opto86

Posts: 772
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 1:36 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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This economic crisis was not caused by unethical people or by a lack of regulation from conservatives.

The origin of the crisis began in the Carter Administration as lenders were encouraged by activists to make loans to urban minorities. Then risky loans were accelerated with the Community Reinvestment Act and the government chartered Fannie Mae and Mac to make loans to those with a credit risk. In fact at the time, the Fed guidelines stated that poor credit should not be a factor in making loans.

In the last 8 years after numerous attempts by the White House to regulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack, it was Barney Frank who insisted there was no pending financial crisis. He stated that the Bush Administration was more concerned about financial market than housing.

Now that the day of reckoning is at hand, he states it is the private sector that's at fault.

However, if Barney Frank would look in a mirror he would see the cause, that is greed and government overregulation of the financial markets.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 1:59 PM   in response to: opto86 in response to: opto86
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The government didn't force anybody to make a bad loan. The government didn't force the banks to chop up these bad loans into deriviatives that had no real value and sell them back and forth amongst each other. The evidence for this is that there are many banks (large ones even) that didn't engage in these processes and didn't require funds to stay afloat.
MelFamy


Posts: 2,563
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 2:08 PM   in response to: opto86 in response to: opto86
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I take issue with 2 facets of your argument..

No was forced to loan money to minorities. They were made to ignore ethnicity when making loans. And that was thirty years ago! You may as well blame Nixon for taking us off the gold standard. Come to think of it
Barney frank was in the minority party for six of the last eight years. .

Phil Gramm is far more responsible. although Bill Clinton does get an assist, for de-regulating the banking system, subverting the Glass-Steagal Act, which made the banks less accountable. And of course the home-buyers should have had better sense than to live without their means, so to speak.

Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 24, 2009 12:42 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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I find it interesting how many Republican congressmen claimed to get their favorite pet projects in the stimulus package and yet still voted against it. Seems hypocritical to me.

Look, if some Republican govenors decide not to take their share of the stimulus package it is to their states' detriment. And it frees more money up for other states. Let's see how this shakes out in the next couple of years.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 24, 2009 1:05 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Gramps wrote:
Look, if some Republican govenors decide not to take their share of the stimulus package it is to their states' detriment. And it frees more money up for other states. Let's see how this shakes out in the next couple of years.

Sure. But to listen to folks like Jindal talk, you'd swear this thing is the worst package ever. If that were the case, then don't take any of the money! Stand on your principles, and let the voters have their say. But if you're going to take almost all of the money, then you've lost the high ground to complain about it.
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 24, 2009 3:54 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Wonder what Palin is going to do. She has never been known to turn down Federal monies.
monique28

Posts: 37
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 9:14 AM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Ok Folks:

I heard Obama's speech last night and some points of it were good and some were okay. Honestly, I didn't vote for him for president, I voted for John McCain and Palin, and yes, I have been criticized for it, but that is the way I feel. I don't know who listened to Gov. Jindal's speech last night, but I thought he gave a really good speech and gave some really good pointers on this mess. It is going to take a long time for us Americans to get out of this mess and it will not take overnight and, like Jindal said, Republicans and Democrats need to work together to provide a solution.

Sean:

I suggest you read this!
PhilCollins

Posts: 302
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 11:03 AM   in response to: monique28 in response to: monique28
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I listened to most of Gov. Jindal's speech, and I agreed with him. The stimulus law is too expensive and unconstitutional. I didn't vote for McCain because he's too liberal. I live in Illinois, and I knew that McCain wouldn't win Obama's state.
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 11:36 AM   in response to: monique28 in response to: monique28
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Oh, I agree Democrats and Republicans have to work together to resolve the issues at hand. But it doesn't help to have Republican diehards saying they have to mount an insurgency in opposition ot Obama. It doesn't help to have conservative mouthpieces saying they hope the President fails. It does not halp to have a female congressman from Minnesota questioning the patriotism of her collegues.

Obama is making an effort to make nice. Let's see some of it from the other side.
wanderer


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Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 28, 2009 6:42 PM   in response to: monique28 in response to: monique28
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really good speech?

every thing i heard and read said it was a dud - even David Brooks - screaming liberal that he is - said it was insane. childish. .

oh dear.
Gloria


Posts: 4,393
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 9:48 AM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Obama has never reimbursed Chicago for all the expenses of keeping him safe ,etc. during his campaign .there.
And during the Kentucky ice storm Obama had a new Air Force One at his disposal
but he never showed in Kentucky.
He was too busy dining on $100.00 steak.
The Amish (God bless them) helped the citizens of Kentucky..
,
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 11:33 AM   in response to: Gloria in response to: Gloria
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Regarding Kentucy: Obama did what was legally required of him. He has to wait for a request from the governor of Kentucky before he can declare it to be a federal disaster, which he did on 29 January 2009. While the blizzard was one of the worst Kentucky has ever seen, it is not like a Category 4 Hurricane. Besides, how do you know the price of the meat Obama may or may not be eating?

Oh, and no matter who is running for president, the hosting governmental entity is obliged to provide protection.

And, don't you think Chicago stands to gain with the added tourism their famous resident is going to generate?
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 10:28 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Sean,

I can't disagree with the poll numbers, but I want to caution anyone in the use of polling data to prove a point. Take a look at the following link:

http://ktrh.com/pages/pastpolls.html

I'll tell you immediately why no one should pay attention to the KTRH poll: it's inherently slanted toward the bias of the radio station.

Whether or not we would like to admit it or not, psychologists have studied this phenomenon thoroughly: a poll result will show the inherent bias of the institution or person conducting the poll. That is a fact, and to cite such polls as representative of the entire population is ludicrous.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 10:44 AM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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Whether or not we would like to admit it or not, psychologists have studied this phenomenon thoroughly: a poll result will show the inherent bias of the institution or person conducting the poll. That is a fact, and to cite such polls as representative of the entire population is ludicrous.

But it's not just one poll showing these results, though.

ABC/Washington Post, CNN, the AP, and USA Today all have had polls that show broad public support for the stimulus. The AP poll had questions similar to the NYT, on who was cooperating and who wasn't. It showed the same sort of results.

http://www.pollingreport.com/budget.htm

And these polls are completely different than the KTRH poll you cite in your post. As you know, these use statistical methods and are not based on self-selected respondants.

Edited by: Sean on Feb 25, 2009 10:45 AM
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 3:41 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Sean,

I cited the KTRH poll to show an obvious bias, and when all these polls are showing the same thing, it means that they are revealing the bias behind the organizations that are putting them forward. Unless you can contradict the studies that psychologists have done and show that these opinion polls are doing something the complete opposite of the norm, then citing them is a worthless enterprise.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 4:13 PM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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TheHawg wrote:
Sean,

I cited the KTRH poll to show an obvious bias, and when all these polls are showing the same thing, it means that they are revealing the bias behind the organizations that are putting them forward.


So every media organization is biased? Then how do you explain it when these same organizations produced poll results that were favorable to Republicans during Bush's first term?

Isn't it at least possible that given the Democrats' crushing electoral victories in 2006 and 2008, that the American people actually prefer their policies?
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 25, 2009 9:21 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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So every media organization is biased?

Without a doubt.

Then how do you explain it when these same organizations produced poll results that were favorable to Republicans during Bush's first term?

They expected to get those results. Perhaps I should have made myself clearer in my previous posts. Those who have studied such phenomena (psychologists) have determined that one's preconceived ideals will be what a poll shows. If someone has the preconception that Republicans will have a favored public view, the poll will bring that to reality. Similarly with the NYT et.al polls. They inherently reveal the preconceived notion/bias of those who performed polls.

Isn't it at least possible that given the Democrats' crushing electoral victories in 2006 and 2008, that the American people actually prefer their policies?

I have no doubt that some Americans have and always will prefer the Democrats' policies just as some will always prefer the Republican policies. But people are a fickle group. It is very, very possible that policies had nothing to do with it, but there were several historical forces at play that made it very difficult for Republicans this go round. For instance history has shown how difficult it is for a ruling party to maintain its power when the economy is heading into or is in a recession. There were other factors at play during this election cycle, but I can't remember them off the top of my head, and I'm too tired this evening to look them up.
Sweetmusicman


Posts: 1,191
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 26, 2009 1:56 AM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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For instance history has shown how difficult it is for a ruling party to maintain its power when the >economy is heading into or is in a recession

TheHawg- Your post just make me think of something; I wonder how many pro-choice and pro-life people would have voted Republican if it wasn't for the economy? Which brings me to a possible conclusion that some people are only pro choice and pro life when the economy is good.

Edited by: Sweetmusicman on Feb 26, 2009 9:57 AM

Edited by: Sweetmusicman on Feb 26, 2009 10:01 AM
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 26, 2009 10:59 AM   in response to: Sweetmusicman in response to: Sweetmusicman
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Sweetmusicman wrote:
TheHawg- Your post just make me think of something; I wonder how many pro-choice and pro-life people would have voted Republican if it wasn't for the economy? Which brings me to a possible conclusion that some people are only pro choice and pro life when the economy is good.

I think people rightly change their prioritization of issues based on what is happening in the world at the time. Before 2001, few American voters seriously considered a candidate's position on terrorism when choosing who to vote for. That's a different story now.

I also think, frankly, that most people don't live the abortion issue as strongly as a lot of folks on this board. If you look at polls, most Americans have settled on the fact that abortion should be legal under certain circumstances early in pregnancy and strongly restricted in the third trimester. But the debate isn't controlled by the 60% or so of Americans who believe along those lines -- it's dominated by the extremists who insist on a complete ban or no restrictions at all.
Sweetmusicman


Posts: 1,191
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 12:36 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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it's dominated by the extremists who insist on a complete ban or no restrictions at all.

And you think you know why? What do they have to gain?

We have a saying around here that majority rule, but the minority should not be count out. Often you find that part of the majority group don’t knows or fully understand the issue they stand for. In life it often turns out that the minority can be right or were right in some instances. So don't count your chickens based on the apparent majority who agrees. A majority can be fooled, when desperate for something they long for. Greed, desperation and hopelessness can make the most reasonable person loose their ability to see or fully understand an issue..

Edited by: Sweetmusicman on Feb 27, 2009 9:16 AM
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 8:33 AM   in response to: Sweetmusicman in response to: Sweetmusicman
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Sweetmusicman wrote:
A majority can be fooled, when desperate for something they long for. Greed, desperation and hopelessness can make the most reasonable person loose their ability to see or fully understand an issue..

The majority here aren't the desperate ones, though. It's the minority on both sides that is desperate, and it is those factors you list that prevent them from allowing the rest of society from crafting a respectful compromise and moving on.
Mary0


Posts: 517
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 4, 2009 6:14 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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It's the minority on both sides that is desperate, and it is those factors you list that prevent them from allowing the rest of society from crafting a respectful compromise and moving on.

What is a respectful compromise to you? When someone feels it is a life someone else is destroying, can there be compromise?

Regarding your calling those who disagree with you as extremist in your previous posting, you use lots of name calling when someone disagrees with you. I bet those who were calling for the end of slavery were also called extremists. I bet those who were resisting the holocaust were also called extremists. Who knows, 100 years from now, those who fought so hard for abortion may be then labeled the extremists.

Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 4, 2009 8:37 AM   in response to: Mary0 in response to: Mary0
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Regarding your calling those who disagree with you as extremist in your previous posting, you use lots of name calling when someone disagrees with you.

The reality of the situation is that there are people on the extremes of the continum when it comes to this issue -- on both sides (as I said in my earlier post). That's why I referred to them as "extremists". Their positions are on the edges of the ideological spectrum on this issue and compromise is not an option to them.

If we're going to come to a political resolution on this issue, it's not going to come from those folks, it's going to come from everyone else.

Edited by: Sean on Mar 4, 2009 12:56 PM
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 26, 2009 10:54 AM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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TheHawg wrote:

They expected to get those results. Perhaps I should have made myself clearer in my previous posts. Those who have studied such phenomena (psychologists) have determined that one's preconceived ideals will be what a poll shows. If someone has the preconception that Republicans will have a favored public view, the poll will bring that to reality. Similarly with the NYT et.al polls. They inherently reveal the preconceived notion/bias of those who performed polls.

I'd be curious to see a link on that, if you've got one. Certainly I'm aware that the phrasing of questions and the like can influence poll results. Most polling firms use identiacally phrased questions over time to get around that problem. But the notion that the pollsters can implant their beliefs in the minds of the respondants is a new one.

I have no doubt that some Americans have and always will prefer the Democrats' policies just as some will always prefer the Republican policies. But people are a fickle group. It is very, very possible that policies had nothing to do with it,

Nothing to do with it? Really?
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 26, 2009 1:52 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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I'd be curious to see a link on that, if you've got one.

No link. I'll have to dig through my library to find the book that cited the studies. That might take a while.

Nothing to do with it? Really?

I gave one reason to back that up. A reason based on historical fact. My answer stands: yep, nothing to do with policies.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 26, 2009 2:01 PM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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I gave one reason to back that up. A reason based on historical fact. My answer stands: yep, nothing to do with policies.

I understand how that explains 2008. It doesn't explain 2006, though. 2006 was an explicit rejection of Republican policies on a grand scale.
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 26, 2009 4:45 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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2006 was an explicit rejection of Republican policies on a grand scale.

Hmmm. You really think so? Republican policy, or the war in Iraq which many Dems changed their tune to after it became unpopular to support it (which gave them a boost--and if you don't think the media had anything to do with public perception of the war, you've really got your head buried in the sand) and the myriads of Republican scandals that put them in a bad light as well?
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 8:08 AM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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Hmmm. You really think so?

I do.

Republican policy, or the war in Iraq which many Dems changed their tune to after it became unpopular to support it (which gave them a boost--and if you don't think the media had anything to do with public perception of the war, you've really got your head buried in the sand) and the myriads of Republican scandals that put them in a bad light as well?

I would argue it took the media far too long to figure out how poorly Iraq was going and to ask the tough questions that weren't asked on the front end. It was only that pressure that forced the President and his advisors to face reality and devise a more successful strategy.
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 8:29 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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I would argue it took the media far too long to figure out how poorly Iraq was going and to ask the tough questions that weren't asked on the front end. It was only that pressure that forced the President and his advisors to face reality and devise a more successful strategy.

Arguably one of the most hilarious things ever posted. Believe me, I've been quite aware of the media's negativity toward the war in Iraq considering I've got a brother-in-law who served over there early on in the war and a good friend who was with the 51st airborne division who sent me pics of illegal weapons that Sadaam was concealing. Both of them told me repeatedly as well as our family members not to believe a single word that the media was talking about the war--and this was in the early years before the 2006 election. Furthermore, if it took the U.S. media so long to pick up on the war, how did public perception change so easily? I guarantee it wasn't because of blogging on the net--it was through the mass media.

And, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the President change his course in Iraq AFTER the election. Don't you think, just a little bit, Sean, that the prospects of having to deal with a Democratic controlled congress forced the President's hand just a little bit? He had to do something to produce results or the Dems would have been able to run over him carte blanche (which might not necessarily have been a bad thing, all things considering, but that is beside the point).
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 8:44 AM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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TheHawg wrote:
Believe me, I've been quite aware of the media's negativity toward the war in Iraq

Right. This is the same media that populated its airwaves 90-10 with prowar advocates before the war, and many outlets have acknowledged their failure to ask the right questions of the Administration before the war?

considering I've got a brother-in-law who served over there early on in the war and a good friend who was with the 51st airborne division who sent me pics of illegal weapons that Sadaam was concealing. Both of them told me repeatedly as well as our family members not to believe a single word that the media was talking about the war--and this was in the early years before the 2006 election.

That's hardly proof of anything.

Furthermore, if it took the U.S. media so long to pick up on the war, how did public perception change so easily? I guarantee it wasn't because of blogging on the net--it was through the mass media.

So easily? Public perception on Iraq didn't solidify against it until well into 2005, more than two years into the effort.

And, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the President change his course in Iraq AFTER the election. Don't you think, just a little bit, Sean, that the prospects of having to deal with a Democratic controlled congress forced the President's hand just a little bit? He had to do something to produce results or the Dems would have been able to run over him carte blanche (which might not necessarily have been a bad thing, all things considering, but that is beside the point).

That was part of the public pressure I was referring to. But, as was demonstrated in 2007 and 2008, the filibuster power of Senate Republicans effectively neutered Congressional Democrats.
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 12:21 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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That's hardly proof of anything.

Sorry to disagree with you vehemently on this point, but I trust soldiers who were on the ground and in the midst of what was going on and then their subsequent criticism of the msm in this country. And if you are calling my brother-in-law and good friend liars, then I have an even deeper bone to pick with you.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 2:25 PM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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Sorry to disagree with you vehemently on this point, but I trust soldiers who were on the ground and in the midst of what was going on and then their subsequent criticism of the msm in this country. And if you are calling my brother-in-law and good friend liars, then I have an even deeper bone to pick with you.

What sorts of weapons did they see? We know Saddam had many weapons (not WMD) that were prohibited by UN resolutions (missiles, for instance). That was reported widely in the very media you disdain. The media also widely reported the numerous bogus WMD finds reported during the early days of the war, too.
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 2:44 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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It has nothing to do with what weapons were and weren't found. I was commenting on the msm's portrayal of the war and painting everything in a negative light. You seemed to indicate that they had nothing to do with the public perception of the war, and I argued quite the contrary. Now, you wish to shift the discussion to what weapons were and were not found. Bad form. My argument stands: I trust the soldiers who were on the ground and who saw what was happening in Iraq instead of the msm's portrayal which showed a very biased picture of what was actually happening. This portrayal swayed the public in a very real way whether you choose to believe so or not.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 4:12 PM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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When pretty much everyone acknowlegdes that what we were doing in Iraq wasn't working, then it wasn't working, even if a couple soldiers had personal experiences that indicated thigs were to the contrary. Empirically, you can look at what is happening in Iraq now versus what was happening in Iraq in, say, 2005 and see a huge difference. That's not media fabrication, that's reality.
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 4:30 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Sean,

I have no doubt that things in Iraq weren't working as well as possible. In fact, the surge worked wonders to make things a whole lot better. However, the public perception of the war was very, very different from those who were there on the ground. I'm not simply speaking from the experience of a few soldiers--namely the two I know personally. There were a whole lot more who said the same thing. While things were not great, they were not nearly as bad as portrayed in the msm. How many soldiers did you see interviewed by the msm when they were reporting? Here's a hint, I bet you could count them on one hand. Why? Because they wouldn't give the same story that the msm reporters were giving. Say what you will, Sean, it matters not. The truth comes form those who were there, in the midst of the fighting and rebuilding. Not those trying to paint their own picture of what they wanted everyone else to see.
MelFamy


Posts: 2,563
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 8:45 AM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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Sean's hair is among the least sandy of the participants in this room. He knows, for instance, how the media was cowed by the republican propaganda machine into not questioning the lies perpetrated by Bush and his cronies.
Even today, the major outlets want to just forget about exposing and punishing the liars, as then their complicity and lack of journalistic integrity will be put under the same spotlight.

Hawg, you bring up the point of the dems' support of the war, and there is no other explanation except that most of them let the political winds carry them along. At least the Repubs had the will to do what they thought was right, whether it was legal or proper or not. Democratic leaders such as Sen. Clinton and her hubby, senators Kerry and Edwards(who at least admitted he voted wrong), et all, lacked the moral fiber to put truth ahead of their political career. But one only has to look at the example of the concerted corporate-governmental joint effort (as in a fascist state) to censor the Dixie Chicks, and the outing of a covert CIA agent to see what happened to vocal opponents of Bush' war.
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 12:17 PM   in response to: MelFamy in response to: MelFamy
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Won't question your post, Mel. You've got it down, I think.
cpebach

Posts: 7
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 12:48 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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I watched President Obama's speech, he performs magic with words, and he has charisma. He knows how to say just what is necessary. Take that how you wish. I hope he does well for all our sakes. I however found it interesting to hear one of the Democratic Congressmen reply to a talk show host's question by saying that the stimulus bill that was passed was a good one because it ONLY contained 10 million dollars in earmarks. I immediately recalled what President Obama's exact words were when he remarked in his speech about his pride that the Congress had passed a stimulus bill " without a single earmark". Some folks are so good at making people feel good that they can say anything and get away with it even if it is a lie.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 8:05 AM   in response to: cpebach in response to: cpebach
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There are no earmarks in the stimulus bill.

There is another spending bill going through Congress right now that is rife with them, though.
PhilCollins

Posts: 302
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 11:08 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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It depends upon your definition of "earmark." The stimulus law includes money for many state and city governments. I think those are expensive, unconstitutional earmarks.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 11:24 AM   in response to: PhilCollins in response to: PhilCollins
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It's clear that "earmark" now means "anything we don't like".

Under the John McCain definition of "earmark", there are zero earmarks in the stimulus bill.
opto86

Posts: 772
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 1:11 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Actually this 3.6 Trillion dollar Budget 2010 has 8,500 pet projects.

He (Obama) In a New era of Responsibility states the GDP will shrink by 1.2% this year and grow to 3.2% nest year.

Also, unemployment they project will by 8.1% this year and 7.9% in 2010.

This is a Rosie Scenario based on faulty assumptions. The unemployment now 7.6% and the Federal Reserve states the jobless rate to be 9% later this year. And the economy contracted at 6.2% at the end of 2008.

We need to admit we cannot spend our way into prosperity and at least the Republicans realize government is not the answer. It seems this administration is bent on destroying capital markets to take ultimate control of our economy.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 2:23 PM   in response to: opto86 in response to: opto86
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opto86 wrote:
Actually this 3.6 Trillion dollar Budget 2010 has 8,500 pet projects.

Pet projects, maybe. Earmarks they are not, though. Presidents since the beginning of the federal budgeting process have done the same thing as Obama. Where was your similar scrutiny of the Bush budgets?

We need to admit we cannot spend our way into prosperity and at least the Republicans realize government is not the answer. It seems this administration is bent on destroying capital markets to take ultimate control of our economy.

Well, the capital markets would have already been destroyed had the government not intervened. You can crank up the hyperbolic scare tactics all you want, though.
evrysoul


Posts: 1,526
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Feb 27, 2009 10:14 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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I guess we should just call it political favors to well connected individuals and/or businesses. They simply stuffed projects into bill while Congressmen like Reid and Pelosi stand back and claim they had nothing to do with it. Uh-huh.

Here's the criteria guidelines concerning pork from Citizens Against Gov't Waste (note that many items meet the criteria at least once and others at least twice);

Requested by only one chamber of Congress;
Not specifically authorized;
Not competitively awarded;
Not requested by the President;
Greatly exceeds the President’s budget request or the previous year’s funding;
Not the subject of congressional hearings; or
Serves only a local or special interest.

And here's* FactCheck's* take;

No Earmarks?

Obama said in his Monday night press conference that the stimulus "does not contain ... a single pet project, not a single earmark, and it has been stripped of the projects members of both parties found most objectionable."

The “pet projects” may not have been so easily identifiable in the House bill, but watchdog groups picked out some in the Senate version. "To say there are no earmarks, would not be an accurate statement. There are very few," said Citizens Against Government Waste President Tom Schatz, "[M]embers of Congress have gotten much more creative."

Schatz rattled off a few examples that were in the Senate version: $198 million for benefits for Filipino veterans; $2 billion for a near-zero emissions coal plant, which would most likely go to the FutureGen project in Illinois; $500 million for National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Md. Members’ names weren't attached to the items. Still, Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois has supported FutureGen, and why wouldn’t Maryland Sens. Barbara Mikulski and Benjamin Cardin be pleased to see funds go to their state? Such items meet the group's definition of what qualifies as "pork." For the record, funds for the near-zero emissions plant were stripped out of the final conference report, but the Filipino veterans benefits and funds for NIH buildings are still there.

The investigative journalism site ProPublica, in a story published with MSNBC.com, identified several more questionable projects that members argue create or save jobs – for their own constituents. The Associated Press, too, found it noteworthy that Obama promised an audience in Elkhart, Indiana, that a bill with no pork would bring roadwork and perhaps a new downtown overpass.

Yet, any of these pet projects very well could lead to jobs. What critics see as "pork," people who stand to benefit would see as necessary funds to boost local economies.

KC Star;
http://primebuzz.kcstar.com/?q=node/17001
What is an ‘earmark’?In part, the answer hinges on the definition of an “earmark.” Democrats insist they are nowhere in the plan; Republicans see “pork” everywhere. So we cribbed from criteria Congress laid out in a 2007 reform bill: language that aims spending at specific programs, states or localities, often at a member’s request.

Specific location? The Senate stimulus contains $50 million for habitat restoration and other water needs in the San Francisco Bay Area. There is another $62 million for military projects in Guam.

Specific contractors? The Senate bill directs $1.2 billion to the Transportation Security Administration for hardware, including explosive detection machines, which are made by only three companies: General Electric, L-3 Communications and Reveal Imaging Technologies. (Msnbc.com is a joint venture of Microsoft and NBC Universal, which is a GE company.)

Specific program? There’s $198 million to compensate Filipino World War II veterans for their service. Most don’t live in the United States.

And MSNBC;

http://www.propublica.org/feature/welcome-in-the-stimulus-bill-an-earmark-by-any-other-name

In theory and publicity, the package is "earmark free." But it contains dozens of narrowly defined programs that send money to specific areas or cater to special interests, despite President Obama's pledge to pass "an economic recovery plan that is free from earmarks and pet projects."

Some -- like the yacht workers' exemption -- would take little or nothing from taxpayer pockets. Others, like $3 billion in extra transit money added in by the House, are handing ammo to critics who say the stimulus plan, now at about $900 billion in the Senate, has morphed into a Christmas list.

Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 2, 2009 8:15 AM   in response to: evrysoul in response to: evrysoul
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If you look at the criteria, how does any road or transit project not qualify as "waste", since it could be argued it serves only a "local or special interest". The stimulus bill is designed for money to be spent on shovel-ready projects designed to be ready to go. It's entirely appropraite for some projects to be singled out as part of that process. That doesn't mean, though, that every one of those projects is pork.
evrysoul


Posts: 1,526
The Bridge to Nowhere is shovel ready!
Posted: Mar 2, 2009 1:16 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Well, if you're going to assume that all of the money is for road projects, then I'd guess I'd have to agree. But to deny that each portion was pre-destined, to each state, for an unknown project, without a payback to campaign contributors, I'd have to disagree.

For example; Harry Reid wants a train to Disneyland. The money is not directly earmarked for his project in the stimulus, so he proudly proclaims that he has no control over the money given to his state. Reid made sure his state got plenty of money, his constituents know it's on his wish list, his state miraculously designates money, gives the contract to Amtrak, and whala - train to Disneyland.

Every single recipient of the stimulus will claim that their ideas will create jobs - be it butterfly farms, tattoo parlors or golf courses. Heck - I could make the case that I need a sprinkler system in my front yard because it's conducive to the environment.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: The Bridge to Nowhere is shovel ready!
Posted: Mar 2, 2009 1:42 PM   in response to: evrysoul in response to: evrysoul
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evrysoul wrote:

For example; Harry Reid wants a train to Disneyland. The money is not directly earmarked for his project in the stimulus, so he proudly proclaims that he has no control over the money given to his state. Reid made sure his state got plenty of money, his constituents know it's on his wish list, his state miraculously designates money, gives the contract to Amtrak, and whala - train to Disneyland.

Except that the L.A.-Vegas train IS NOT in the stimulus package. Here's the actual text of the stimulus bill as it pertains to high-speed rail:

Within 60 days of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary shall submit to the House and Senate Committees on Appropriations a strategic plan that describes how the Secretary will use the funding provided under this heading to improve and deploy high speed passenger rail systems.

No routes specified!

L.A. to Vegas was found in a past DoT study to be a poor candiate for maglev. So it seems unlikely that the magical floating train from Disneyland to Las Vegas will ever be built.

Sorry to rain on your parade of misinformation.

Every single recipient of the stimulus will claim that their ideas will create jobs - be it butterfly farms, tattoo parlors or golf courses.

Except NONE of those things are actually funded by the stimulus package.

http://www.factcheck.org/politics/gop_stimulus_myths.html
evrysoul


Posts: 1,526
Re: The Bridge to Nowhere is shovel ready!
Posted: Mar 2, 2009 11:39 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Re-routed earmark proposals MN

http://www.stimuluswatch.org/project/by_state/MN&per_page=200

Skate Plaza Improvement St. Cloud MN 9 $750,000

Youth Center Addition Burnsville MN 10 $1,100,000

Nicollet Commons Water Feature Rehab Burnsville MN 5 $550,000 (Fountain)

Greenhouse Gas Tracking Program Burnsville MN 1 $50,000

Hanson Field Turf Replacement Burnsville MN 10 $1,100,000
wanderer


Posts: 5,077
Re: The Bridge to Nowhere is shovel ready!
Posted: Mar 3, 2009 7:29 AM   in response to: evrysoul in response to: evrysoul
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it you click on that skate plaza improvement you will see that 97% are against using the money for that project.

i understand states were allowed to submit wish lists - looks like they did.

if i was asked for a wish list - i would have some less than serious stuff on it that would enrich my life - a new Sunday School class room, and a trip to Hawaii for every member of my family.

but those things certainly are not prioirties in my budget. they are just my wish lists.

looked to me like there were some rather good items in those several pages on MN. will check out my state and see what they have on the list. i sure hope they have some new roads - learned yesterday the county is cutting back on road maintenance this year and well, coming from the grocery store yesterday was a teeth jarring experience.
wanderer


Posts: 5,077
Re: The Bridge to Nowhere is shovel ready!
Posted: Mar 3, 2009 7:38 AM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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just clicked on my town - very pleased - overwhelming items were road maintenance and reconstruction. about time too.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: The Bridge to Nowhere is shovel ready!
Posted: Mar 3, 2009 8:04 AM   in response to: evrysoul in response to: evrysoul
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Re-routed earmark proposals MN

These are all proposals submitted by mayors. They ARE NOT funded in the bill.

And, in fact, many such projects are explicitly prohibited by the language in the bill, which bans use of stimulus money for many recreational facilities including golf courses, aquariums, zoos, gaming establishments, swiiming pools, massage parlors, hot tub facilities, and sunbathing facilities.
wanderer


Posts: 5,077
Re: The Bridge to Nowhere is shovel ready!
Posted: Mar 3, 2009 8:31 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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ah shucks - you are reading the fine point. i thought that was evident from the posting. even to the point of nitpicking. just like that special train to disneyland. ah huh.

it is the headlines that you want to believe - people don't read the small print. :) :) :)
evrysoul


Posts: 1,526
Re: The Bridge to Nowhere is shovel ready!
Posted: Mar 7, 2009 11:59 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Isn't this kind like saying that the accused murdered, who has a very long prior record, was in the area, with a loaded gun, on the exact same night, at the exact same time, and although he had blood splattered all over his clothes, he couldn't have been the killer?
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: The Bridge to Nowhere is shovel ready!
Posted: Mar 9, 2009 8:14 AM   in response to: evrysoul in response to: evrysoul
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No, it's not. Not one of the projects you claimed was funded by the stimulus bill is in there.
Janet38

Posts: 3
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 8, 2009 3:29 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Another definition for change is "out of the frying pan, into the fire."
Janet38

Posts: 3
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 8, 2009 3:30 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Another definition for change is "out of the frying pan, into the fire."
Don the Norski


Posts: 4,397
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 8, 2009 7:39 PM   in response to: Janet38 in response to: Janet38
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Did you know that one definition of insanity is doing the same thing in the same manner over again and expecting different results?

Its been proven that doing it the R's way didn't work, doesn't work, and won't work. To continue trying to do it that way would meet the above definition of insanity. Luckily, the American public was smarter than that. They want different results, so they are using a different method.
Shar M


Posts: 15,914
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 8, 2009 7:44 PM   in response to: Don the Norski in response to: Don the Norski
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And please explain to me how 50 years of welfare and entitlement programs have improved anything except to make people more dependent on the government?
Don the Norski


Posts: 4,397
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 8, 2009 8:11 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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You'd really want to go back to Ozzie and Harriet, Leave it to Beaver, and Dobie Gillis? We look back on some of the TV shows of the time as nostalgic, but the differences aren't in entitlements, Shar. Then, a family could live on the living wage paid to one member of the family. Can't do that nowadays.

Per capita, can you show that there are more people receiving assistance now? I believe the current use of the food bank and unemployment surge should be excepted from the comparison, unless you would like to put the blame for that squarely on the policies of the past eight years. 50 years ago, aid was packaged differently, in "surplus commodities". But it was just as prevelant as today.

Shar, Social Security is an entitlement. Are you drawing yours? Did your folks... your grandparents? How long has it been around?

How many elderly would have died prematurely if Medicare would not have been around?

"Good ol' days"? I've been there once.... don't need 'em again.
Shar M


Posts: 15,914
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 8, 2009 8:52 PM   in response to: Don the Norski in response to: Don the Norski
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Yes, Don, I am drawing Social Security. How is it an entitlement, since I paid into it for many, many years?

However, had I been allowed to invest that same amount of money in my retirement plan, I'd probably be money ahead today.
wanderer


Posts: 5,077
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 8, 2009 10:43 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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i have always understood that by time you have drawn social security for 10 years, you are no longer drawing what you put in - all that you put in has been withdrawn. after 10 years you are drawing on what others have put in or what has increased - not your original investment.

based on what personal information you have shared with this board - ie your graduation etc - you are at classmates - right? i would take a big guess that you have been drawing for close to 10 years -

so you are probably ahead of what you paid in. and considering where the stock market has headed the last few months - not just since the inauguration - you would have lost money. and you probably have a few more social security checks to collect.
Shar M


Posts: 15,914
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 9, 2009 12:28 PM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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I began drawing early and have been drawing for seven years. I probably paid about the same anount into my retirement fund, but it was invested wisely and pays much more.

Edited by: Shar M on Mar 9, 2009 1:29 PM
Don the Norski


Posts: 4,397
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 9, 2009 7:51 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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It is an entitlement because you are entitled to receive benefits from the program. The fact that you contributed to the program through a payroll tax (not to fund your individual "account", but to co-mingle with all other participant's funds) does not remove it from being an "entitlement". Social Security is an insurance program, and the money you contributed is similar to the premiums you pay for insurance, not contributions to an IRA.

As far as privatization of Social Security, you may have had a few good years up until now, but the rest of your retirement, when you really needed it, would be comprised of far less generous benefits. You'd not have the years necessary to rebuild the balance, particularly with a declining balance as benefits were drawn.
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 9, 2009 6:09 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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However, had I been allowed to invest that same amount of money in my retirement plan, I'd probably be money ahead today.

Probably not. The current contraction of the market is proof enough that private social security accounts would not work,
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 9, 2009 6:14 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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The current contraction of the market is proof enough that private social security accounts would not work,

How, Gramps? Markets fluctuate. They go up and down, but over the long haul, they trend up.

Measure that against what the gubment has done with the Social Security Fund. Instead of leaving it alone and letting it accrue, they tap into it and use the money for their projects. As such, I'm looking at not receiving a single dime that I've invested in it for the past 17 years I've been working--or over the entirety of my career. Let me ask you this one: would I have been better off investing on my own--even though potentially I would have lost some money--or allowing the government take these earnings so that I have nothing what-so-ever?
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 10, 2009 8:07 AM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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TheHawg wrote:As such, I'm looking at not receiving a single dime that I've invested in it for the past 17 years I've been working--or over the entirety of my career.

That's just not true. Even when Social Security goes "bankrupt" -- without any adjustments -- it will be able to pay about 75% of the promised benefits. Social Security will only vanish completely if conservatives have their way with the program.

Let me ask you this one: would I have been better off investing on my own--even though potentially I would have lost some money--or allowing the government take these earnings so that I have nothing what-so-ever?

You misunderstand the purpose of the program. Social Security is an insurance program. And it has been one of the most successful government programs in American history. Before Social Security, elderly Americans were the age group with the highest incidence of poverty. Today, they have the least incidence of poverty.
wanderer


Posts: 5,077
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 10, 2009 8:18 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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i find this talk about social security and it going bankrupt to be most interesting.

anyone who works for someone else is required to pay into FICA. is that not correct? and that covers most of the workers in the US.

are those workers so darn stupid that they would let the program go bankrupt and just take it? why in the world wouldn't they revolt and get the government to pay what is due.

wasn't there some kind of protest by WW I soldiers who didn't get their promised bonus? and didn't they end up getting it?

if the american workers are willing to just sit there and let the social security fund quit paying - perhaps they deserve it. it is supposed to be our governemnt - you know by the people of the people for the people.

perhaps it is time to ratchet up the comments and letters to congress instead of on a message board. course maybe if we could find out the truth first - that might help.
Don the Norski


Posts: 4,397
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 10, 2009 11:00 PM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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"anyone who works for someone else is required to pay into FICA. is that not correct?"

That's not exactly correct, no. Self employed people pay both the employer and the employee shares. And, public employers must hold elections and referendums to join Social Security if they aren't already in, and wish to offer it to their employees. So, if the employer isn't in Social Security (typically, under a master agreement through the state they're in), the employee has no Social Security for their employment there.
wanderer


Posts: 5,077
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 11, 2009 7:39 AM   in response to: Don the Norski in response to: Don the Norski
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anyone who works for someone else would not be considered as self employed. at least not as i understand it - was self employed for nigh unto 30 years so am a wee bit familiar with self employed taxes. and schedule c and all that jazz.

please share more on those elections and referendums.
Don the Norski


Posts: 4,397
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 11, 2009 7:51 AM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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I was trying to show that it wasn't only employees of the private sector that participated in Social Security -- self-employed people and many public employees do, as well.

The State of Oregon has a contract, called a 218 agreement, with the SSA. Each public employer within the state that has come into SS through an election of its employees has had to then sign on to an amendment of that original 218 agreement. The public employer then is a participating employer.

I assume that it is a similar situation in other states.
wanderer


Posts: 5,077
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 11, 2009 1:46 PM   in response to: Don the Norski in response to: Don the Norski
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i am sorry - i think my post was in the wrong place -

was tired and in a hurry to get to work - what is wrong with me :)

sorry.

i did some reading on the 218 thing - thanks.
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 10, 2009 6:25 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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That's just not true. Even when Social Security goes "bankrupt" -- without any adjustments -- it will be able to pay about 75% of the promised benefits. Social Security will only vanish completely if conservatives have their way with the program.

Sean,

You are much more optomistic about our government than I and more rosy in your outlook. We know, at least by recent projections that in 2017, payments will exceed income to ss. Therefore, the government will have to start drawing on the trust funds comprised of the overages paid to ss in the past. But where exactly are those trust funds? The government has "borrowed" against them to fund its projects.

So, given that our government is now running at a huge deficit that grew exponentially under G. W. Bush and is expected to grow even more under Obama, where in the h-e-double hockey sticks is that money going to come from? Borrow more? Print more? Make significant cuts? Increase taxes? Good luck.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 11, 2009 8:05 AM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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TheHawg wrote:
You are much more optomistic about our government than I and more rosy in your outlook. We know, at least by recent projections that in 2017, payments will exceed income to ss. Therefore, the government will have to start drawing on the trust funds comprised of the overages paid to ss in the past. But where exactly are those trust funds? The government has "borrowed" against them to fund its projects.

The trust fund holds T-bills in return for the borrowed money. The government can't default on them, unless special legislation is passed. Now, I would agree that this scenario likely means some sort of budgetary impact.

However, the likelihood that the government is just going to wipe away Social Security is about nil. It's politically not feasible.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 10, 2009 8:34 AM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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The other problem with private accounts is that they do nothing to solve the current Social Security problem. Older workers are going to have to be paid using Social Security, and if you pull younger workers out of the program, there's no revenue to pay those folks off. If you solve the transition expense problem, then moving folks to a private account may work, as long as it's structured such that the insurance part of the program is still there as well.
calan

Posts: 996
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 10, 2009 6:34 PM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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The Social Security (government) plan for retirement really wasn't a good plan was it Sean. Our government really did not know how to manage or leave its hands off of its balance. Added to it's failure, its recipients have to pay income taxes on payouts.
wanderer


Posts: 5,077
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 10, 2009 6:51 PM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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have to pay income taxes on payouts.

are you refering to paying income tax on your monthly benefits?

some do - some don't. depends on your income. seems to me that was started around 1985 with the great communicator.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 11, 2009 8:09 AM   in response to: calan in response to: calan
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calan wrote:The Social Security (government) plan for retirement really wasn't a good plan was it Sean. Our government really did not know how to manage or leave its hands off of its balance.

No, I think it was (and is) a good plan. It has achieved its objectives. Now, certainly, it needs some tweaking. I guess I'm not really sure how people would expect a program to exist for 75 years with perfect foresight of what was going to happen in the future. The fact that SS has gone so long without much tweaking is actually a testament to how well it was designed in the first place.
opto86

Posts: 772
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 11, 2009 10:11 AM   in response to: Sean in response to: Sean
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Bernard Maddoff will spend the next 150 years cleaning prison cells for his wealth creation plan. He is probably relieved it finally collapsed.

Social Security is the largest pyramidal scheme devised and it's not sustainable when the ratio is worker ratio 2:1 in a few years.

There are 3 solutions: raise taxes, reduce spending and create a personal retirement account (PRA).
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 11, 2009 11:04 AM   in response to: opto86 in response to: opto86
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opto86 wrote: There are 3 solutions: raise taxes, reduce spending and create a personal retirement account (PRA).

Private accounts aren't a solution, unless you're going to just end Social Security for current and soon-to-be retirees. You've still got to pay the transitional costs to get you from SS to private accounts.
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 10, 2009 1:15 PM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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Hawg

I have been contributing to an IRA for the past 20 years. I will be sixty this year. Before the the downturn in the market it looked like I would be able to comfortably retire at 65. My nest egg is now half what it was just six months ago. While I do expect the market to turn around in the next year, it does look like I might have to delay retirement until 70. That is assuming I will be able to keep my health, but as the recent incident with my foot shows, there is no guarantee that I can. It really hit home when the doctor warned me that I might lose my foot. If that had happened I would have had to take SSD. I can tell you that I could not live on SSD alone and my personal retirement accounts would have been exhausted within 10 years. For me, these next ten years are make or break.

At this time, I am continuing to invest in my IRA doing dollar cost averaging. As the market goes down my monthly contribution buys more stock (I am considered a moderate investor). On average the market has increased in value by 46% in the year after a recession. If we have a V shaped recovery, so much the better. But if the recovery is L shaped it might take ten years for the market to recover.

Now, if I were nearer to retirement, I would be in a world of hurt. I have a number of friends who don't have 10 years to catch up. They do not know how they are going to make it in retirement. Just the other day I became aware of a greeter at a local store who is 90 years old. He had to go back to work part time because his retirement funds are exhausted.

The thing of it is privatized social security accounts for people my age would be dangerous.
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 10, 2009 6:14 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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The thing of it is privatized social security accounts for people my age would be dangerous.

That I can appreciate, and I would never suggest that we scrap the whole ordeal at this point. However, some privatization could be a good thing for some folks: like myself.

I thought long and hard about opting out of social security when faced with that choice as I entered the ordained ministry. However, thoughts of the possibility of major medical bills as I aged led me to contribute. I was well aware of the shortcomings and the dangers that ss faced, but I took a calculated risk. If I could pay part of my money to ss as it stands and invest the rest in a private account, that would be gravy. But unlike you, I probably have 30 years to go in working if my health holds.
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 10, 2009 7:08 PM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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When I was ordained, I had the option of opting out too. The dean of our conferance (actually in the LCMS it was a Wenkel) was not enrolled in SS. I was at a meeting with him when the president of the district tried to get him to enroll. The dean had four kids. Wife did not work. The dean refused. Six months later they found a growth in his brain. Less than six months later he was dead. The family did have some life insurance they were able to fall back on, but it certainly was not enough to support the growing family and get the kids through college.

Oh, I know full well the dangers of not being in Social Security.
ssandy


Posts: 4,842
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 10, 2009 6:23 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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Beg my pardon here Gramps, as I don't know all the ins and outs of IRA's, but are they in some fashion diversified?
All my investments are diversified, as in small cap, large cap, bonds, international funds, blah blah blah, and I am invested in about 8 different areas such as this from high risk all the way down to low risk. Much of this is high risk as I am but 45 years old which makes me what.....about 75 years from retirement yet...lol. I also have a state retirement plan that is invested in as well, but for only six months out of the year, and of course, I've paid into social security. I then have various insurance products like long and short term disability, etc. and even a child life package, should one of my children pass and I need to bury them or take some time off to screw my head back on straight. And of course I have a life ins package that is over three times the value of my debt load, so there will be something left for my children to get by on. Some of this may change when my kids become more independent in their own lives and careers once they move out too.

My point is this...my investments all took a steep steep rise back whenever, ten years ago or so. I knew it was a false high and could not last. So when I saw those numbers, I knew the long haul was more of a real picture of the value of my investments. So now, as I see some of this making steep steep drops, I can still look back at my initial investments over time, and see a profit margin that is not unreasonable at all. I've always believed in diversifying my ching; not putting all my eggs in one basket. This seems to have worked out well enough for me so far. I'm not hurting in this economy near as much as so many that I hear. My credit card debt is zip. My home loan is all I have, and that is still less than half of it's value in the worst of markets. And yes, I earn 25K a year and am laid off a couple months a year with no work available and have lived this way for now going on two decades. No second income from a spouse or live in. I've reared 2 kids this way and so far, all is well. I do only have one month's expenses in savings though, but much to lean on that I have saved in my kids' names.

My kids, are 16 and a month away from being 18. All their lives I saved their birthday monies, etc. and they would get to spend about 1/3 on whatever, give charitably 1/3, and save the rest. I would buy savings bonds for them as I could and ask for them as gifts as well. As they finally got $500 in savings, I then rolled it over into the longest term, highest rate CD's that I could for them, knowing all the while, this money was mine to use to save our fannies should the feces ever hit the oscillator. I kept rolling over those CD's and would add whatever accumulated in their savings to it each time. At age 16 I went in and got them a checking account and taught them how to use that and their debit cards. Come drivers license and car buying time, they take out a loan against their CD's. This way, if they default on their loan payment, Momma don't make that payment, they do, and if they lose their CD, they still have a vehicle in the morning to get to work in. They pay their own insurance as well. By the time they reach 18 which is right around the corner for one of them now, they know how to handle money, how to save, they can handle a checking account and debit card and balance it, and they have a credit and bill paying history. I also taught them to do as I do with my debt, and instead of making one payment a month, divvy it up and make two, saving two weeks worth of interest each month which adds up in the life of a loan, particularly if you pay even a tiny bit more each two weeks.
For example, my home loan was 49,500 a year and four months ago. By paying a tad more, and making an installment every two weeks, I have managed in that year and four months, to knock 1 year and 7 months off my loan already and today owe 44K. And yes, guess what, this is one of those dreaded fearful, not to be touched, ARM's!!! gasp!! (When I took out the ARM, by the way, I figured out the payment at the highest possible amount of interest and knew before I signed, that I could readily make that payment even if I had to go flip burgers at Mac and Dons should my job disintegrate.)
I've tried to be a fiscally responsible, and raise my kids in the same fashion. I am very comfortable too, by the way, and have all I desire. But then I don't have huge pipe dreams for STUFF.

So anyway, back to your IRA...are they in some way diversified? My understanding is one should MOST DEFINITELY diversify, and invest in higher risky stuff right up until five years before retirement, and at that point, go completely to low risk for that last five years.
Many folks griping about financial scandals today would not be in that heap they are in, had they paid attention to these strategies me thinks...
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 10, 2009 7:19 PM   in response to: ssandy in response to: ssandy
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Oh, yes, ssandy, my IRA investments are diversified. I learned a long time ago not to put all my eggs in one basket. But, given the depth of the rescession we are experiening, no matter what basket my investments are in, there has been shrinkage. I use a simple rule of thumb. I subtract my age from 100. The difference I put in growth funds. That means 40% of my IRA is in growth while 60% is in income funds. Problem is, given the interest rates bonds are getting now once the market turns around bonds will suffer. So, for the time being I am staying pat with what I have in bonds, and dollar cost averaging in growth. If I were to retire today, I would want my investments to outlive me. Since I could live another 30 some years I still need to invest in growth funds. Once I retire I will start moving to more conservative investments. But even if I were 90 years old, I still would want 10% of my investments in growth funds.
ssandy


Posts: 4,842
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 10, 2009 8:02 PM   in response to: Gramps in response to: Gramps
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See now, my plan is to drop dead pretty much before I ever have to depend on any of it. Basically my rule of 90 is that I expect to be an active part of the work force until I AM 90...lol.
Gramps


Posts: 14,445
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 10, 2009 8:17 PM   in response to: ssandy in response to: ssandy
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Like I said, I know of a 90 year old who is still working. Personally I think it is scandelous. But I have to admit I will probably be working part time beyond my 70th too.
TheHawg

Posts: 1,614
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 9, 2009 12:36 PM   in response to: Don the Norski in response to: Don the Norski
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Then, a family could live on the living wage paid to one member of the family. Can't do that nowadays.

Yes, one can. According to the living wage calculator, my family of five is receiving less than a living wage on my salary alone. However, we are doing very well. We have more income than expenses. We will be able to send each child to preschool for one year before entering public education, and we have enough to begin saving for college.

We have made sacrifices and cutbacks in certain areas of life to achieve this, but those areas are wants and not needs.
Shar M


Posts: 15,914
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 9, 2009 12:49 PM   in response to: TheHawg in response to: TheHawg
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I know a number of families who are doing it. The secret is differentiating between needs and wants.
Sean


Posts: 6,519
Re: America to Republicans: Get with the program!
Posted: Mar 9, 2009 12:54 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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If you look at the numbers, though, it's getting increasingly difficult to do. For the last three decades median household income has essentially stagnated despite the fact that percentage of women in the workforce has increased and hours worked has increased. It's empirically true to say that Americans have had to work harder to stay at the same place.

Now, you can argue we should be willing to make choices that might result in a lower standard of living to gain the other non-monetary benefits.