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Permlink Replies: 35 - Last Post: May 2, 2012 3:03 PM Last Post By: Turtletoes2
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Super Pacs
Posted: Apr 29, 2012 7:29 AM
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IMO. Super Pacs have taken over the voting process therefore ruining our country . One man one vote is no longer the way it is.

We all claim we don't like and don't listen to negative ads but:

World-wide news organizations began asking in February 2012 if US democracy itself was being bought and sold.61

Contrary to many opinions that voter backlash would occur, research early in the 2012 campaign indicated most voters found negative advertising informative and candidates benefited from negative advertising sponsored by PACs. 63

In the 2012 Republican primary all front runners received Super Pac funds but Romney received far more then his adversaries.
To think Super Pac funds won't be used in the 2012 elections is naive. That includes both the Senate and Congress as well. Unless America wakes up, we will have a total bought for Republican wash. In some ways I don't blame businessmen for donating to certain Super Pacs. On one level it is just good business. Most of it tho is hideous and would have our fore fathers turning over in their graves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_action_committee.

Wiki has a good explanation of the Pacs. How they work, history ,responsibility, etc.

From Wiki:
In 2000, nearly unlimited spending continued. The billionaire Wyly brothers of Texas "played an instrumental role" when helping their desired candidate Texas Republican George W. Bush via a $2.5-million advertising campaign they financed via a 527 organization.[4]

In the 2004 presidential election, campaign donations were via a 527 organization. One organization, Swift Boat "torpedoed" Massachusetts Democrat John Kerry presidential campaign, 2004 and George W. Bush was elected to a second term.[5] A reported $9.45 million came from three private individuals.[6][7][8]unreliable source?

Swift Boat's was cited as a front group for Republican interests.[9]1011

Details of the influence of wealthy individuals to control the course of elections became more clear in reports like one that documented the Wyly Brothers of Texas alone had made millions in campaign contributions to 200 Republican Candidates.[5]

Super PACs are often run or advised by a candidate's former staff or associates19.

Fred Karger, maintained that the National Organization for Marriage was set up by the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) as a front group to funnel anonymous money to candidates that are against the legalization of same-sex marriage.56 In Washington State in February 2012, the organization vowed to follow through on a commitment to spend $250,000 to help defeat the Republican state senators who voted for a bill to give same-sex couples the right to marry should they seek office again.57

There is so much more to learn about Super Pacs in this article as well as others.

Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: Apr 29, 2012 8:16 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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The President and 2012 candidate Obama, stated in 2007: "I don¿t take PAC money and I don¿t take lobbyists¿ money",Now says "With so much at stake, we can't allow for two sets of rules in this election whereby the Republican nominee is the beneficiary of unlimited spending and Democrats unilaterally disarm" . So, in asking his top fundraisers to steer money to the main super PAC backing his reelection, Obama embraced a campaign vehicle he previously denounced.

I see Obama as a pragmatic realist on this issue.

I doubt he will receive as much as Romney in as much as he is really against Super Pacs and the rich and corps. don't like that at all.

Also the Republicans are on record for being against his stand on taxing the rich at the same rate 90 some per cent are taxed . Therefore the Republicans should "out money" him with their "donations" to their Rep. runner..

I also wonder if hard core Dems. and/or Obama supporters will be against him now that he has taken this stand.
IMO that would be a shame.

I think super pacs are having a bearing on the Elizabeth Warren vs. Scott Brown campaign already. Probably not the only one.

.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: Apr 29, 2012 10:08 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Super Pac All Stars:

http://www.iwatchnews.org/2012/04/26/8754/meet-super-donor-all-stars

I wonder where Carl Rove fits in here.
wanderer


Posts: 5,074
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: Apr 29, 2012 4:35 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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bob perry was behind the swift boat stuff.

i do not like these super pacs. i feel that the mega dollars these people hand out - makes my one little vote meaningless. who is going to listen to me when someone gives them $20 million? wasn't it bob dylan that said money doesn't yell, it swears? or something like that?

i wish obama did not have to take it - but the man is not stupid. if i refuse to vote for obama because he said no pac money and is now taking it - it means i am stuck with voting for romney. no thanks.

i think we need campaign finance reform - like so many other policies in our government need reform. as long as those that make the changes are the recipient of the funds - nothing will change.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: Apr 29, 2012 5:27 PM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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i think we need campaign finance reform - like so many other policies in our government need reform. as long as those that make the changes are the recipient of the funds - nothing will change.

IMO the only way we will get reform of anything is if Obama stays in. He can't be elected again so can reform what he thinks should be done.
That is, assuming he has a Congress and Senate which will for the most part agree with him. The election mess can be attributed to the Repuubs.
There is no question about it. And yes, I'm aware of Nancy Pelosi's fine.
The Super Pacs are as near one sided as far as history, creation and pushing thru, as any party can get.

Also, at this point in time, the only one with real World Experience is Obama and I really can't point to anything he has done miserably wrong so far.

Besides, even before he was Pres. he had a deep and vigorous interest in World affairs that I don't recognize in Romney. Romeys all for appointing others to oversee that end of the Presidency/. Well, Obama can do the same thing but has his very own knowledge and input as well.
I see Romney as a nice guy who had a sucessful Olympic run, was Gov. of a state, made a whole lot of money but had to hurt others by doing so, and that's about it..
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: Apr 30, 2012 6:03 PM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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I sure wish more people were aware of what is going on re. voting and the machinations of the Super Pacs.
IMO it means a great deal to each and every one of us. If you vote with the Super Pacs you might as well say your vote doesn't count because they finageled you into that vote.

On the other hand if you vote against them, it's almost a for gone conclusion your vote don't mean spit.

Seems the U.S. is for sale to the highest bidder.
wanderer


Posts: 5,074
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: Apr 30, 2012 6:11 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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we are getting bombarded with a long ad from i think americans for prosperity. how the stimulus went to companies overseas etc. they want to educate the voters.

saw an article on line that broke it down item by item.

was funny cause one item was this company that got stimulus money and was building a new plant in mexico - making one believe the stimulus was paying for the new plant in mexico.

they cut and paste to make it say what they want it to say - regardless of the truth.

i am tired of campaign advertizing.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 1, 2012 7:55 AM   in response to: wanderer in response to: wanderer
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they cut and paste to make it say what they want it to say - regardless of the truth.

i am tired of campaign advertizing.

Half truths, bumper sticker, and out of context when dreaming up those disgusting ads.
The people I talk to are more interested in that dog then in trying to stop their freedoms from going down the tubes.
We'll be saying: I pledge allegiance to the multi national corporations and to the big bucks they stand for etc. etc. etc.
Rush Limbaugh will be a "great leader". Oh please.

By the way, I heard some where there were no Illegals coming over the border last month and it had dwindled the couple months before. Have you heard anything like that ? If so, they may be beating a dead horse as far as putting money into barriers that different states are asking for..
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 1, 2012 10:15 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Happy May Day! Any one out there recall the May Poll? The day long activities elementary kids engaged in...and then the sudden dropping of the "festivities" because of the Communist association with labor unions and the subsequent 're-assigning' of Labor Day the first Monday in Sept?

I am not drawing any associations, only pointing out how perception too often dictates belief which mutates into fact (or do I mean factoid?)

Unfortunately, ads aren't the sole source of propoganda. See the blog _www__.teapartypatriots.org/blog/girlfriend-lets-talk-about-how-to-convert-a-democrat_

Then there is www.teapartyribune,com

If you have a lot of free time and high tolerance for concrete thinking, you might want to visit www.snoopes.com/politice/obama/birther/ineligible.asp Tax payer money in action!

I am all for people arriving at their own conclusions about the veracity of - whatever. However, please recall that most people are given a certain level of intelligence (as in the bell-shaped curve) which falls on a continuum and don't typically use that intelligence which they do possess. It is so much easier to delegate decisions to others (lack of interest, lack of knowledge, lack of time, and so on. To this one must add the vested interest of both the convincer and the convinced (anything as mundane as appreciating how an individual dresses to the upper 1% keeping their share of the wealth, power, influence, etc.). For just whom is Rush the iconoclast - other addicts?

It is not naive to believe that those in power will act in someone else's interest especially after they have been - theoretically - voted in to represent their supporters? Mr and Ms John Q do not typically participate in a genuine debate to evaluate the outcomes - actual or potential - until they are hit over the head with the fallout. While many have bemoaned the Occupiers (who reportedly are planning some more activities today), they have presented the opportunity to think about alternatives. I applaud their tenacity--but, as a member of the Flower Power generation I have a very vested interest in their outcome which will hopefully return democracy to us, the people.

I, too, have heard of the decreasing traffic in undocumented residents; it was attributed to the state of our economy plummeting and Mexico's rising. But, the reports only identified to and from movement with Mexico...I have not heard the same for those arriving on the coastal shores. Border barriers may be an attractive alternative to a police state. But, I favor a supportive platform on which to build strong economies (Wall Street Organizers, perhaps) and a decrease in the want for elicit drugs (supply/demand economics).
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 1, 2012 10:56 AM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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Before responding , I'd like to read your references but cannont D.L. them.
am trying a different way.
I do recall one report saying people DO watch the ads and take into account their message when voting.
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 1, 2012 11:06 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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I can see why - what I put in the message did not appear on the thread: There is no space between the www. and teaparty, it was supposed to be underscored; try it as a whole entity. As for the second, there is a missing "t" should be teapartytribune. Sorry.

As this has happed previously, it probably is a known issue - but on which side?
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 1, 2012 11:19 AM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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If it's important enough, perhaps you could D.L. it properly.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 1, 2012 11:20 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Oh, assuming it refers to Super Pacs in this thread.
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 2, 2012 12:10 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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If I agreed with you, we would both be wrong...I did enter it correctly; what I did not do was proof the entry after I hit "Post Message"...and I have NO plans to do so in the future.

While you state you are older than I, you have no need to be rude and address me as if I were a child.

Have a good day!
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 2, 2012 3:03 PM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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Rude ? Rude ??

I did not intend to be rude nor do I think I was. I was addressing you as I would address anyone.

If I caused you pain then I'm truly sorry.

Didn't really mean to.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 1, 2012 11:24 AM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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While many have bemoaned the Occupiers (who reportedly are planning some more activities today), they have presented the opportunity to think about alternatives. I applaud their tenacity--but, as a member of the Flower Power generation I have a very vested interest in their outcome which will hopefully return democracy to us, the people.+

Agree tho. much older then F P generation.
Shar M


Posts: 15,911
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 1, 2012 9:52 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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I understand the activities included shutting down bridges and tunnels in New York. Didn't happen because not enough Occupiers turned out. Kind of fizzled out, I guess.
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 1, 2012 10:19 PM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Not quite accurate for NYC. You need to check your facts - violence errupted between police and protestors, traffic snarles, drum circles, and at the end of the day a return to park where the sit in started.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 2, 2012 6:39 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Plans were changed because Trinity was only going to be broadcast.

I'd hardly call it a fizzle considering it's world wide impact and because the publicity it received on a busy news day.
Shar M


Posts: 15,911
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 2, 2012 7:39 AM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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What impact? What candidates did they get elected in the last elections? Other than disruption and causing cities to spend dollars better spent elsewhere to clean up their messes, I don't see what impact they have made.
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 2, 2012 7:55 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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What impact? May I suggest that you were made aware of the movement, had an emotional response, and then posted your coment. What, then, if not an impact?
Shar M


Posts: 15,911
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 2, 2012 8:26 AM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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I thought their impact was intended to be positive. Not so in my case and those I know.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 2, 2012 9:46 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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I'm sure they are aware of opposition.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 2, 2012 10:02 AM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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I'd call that an impact.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 2, 2012 9:52 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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The occupiers said they would clean up their own messes but if they did, it would put the city in a bad light so the city paid taxpayer funds so they appear to be the long suffering goodies.

As far as I know they weren't trying to get anyone in particular elected. Clue me in if this was the case.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 2, 2012 10:18 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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I've addressed the cleaning up accusation.

Occupiers don't like violence. They will usually before hand alert the city/cities as to what routes they are taking and where they intend to hold rallies.

My guess is any violence is created by fringe groups and the police themselves.

The tensest moments in the march took place at the corner of Broadway and Wall Street. Upon arriving, marchers found Wall Street blocked by barricades and helmeted police sitting on horses.
It appeared that police were poised to begin making arrests at the end of Broadway. A heavy police presence wearing riot gear and holding plastic handcuffs waited for protesters before they could reach busy Water Street. The marchers avoided confrontation by heading east on Bridge Street, continuing on to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial amphitheater where thousands gathered and listened to speeches decrying economic disparity in the USA. Though police waited on surrounding streets with busses, police dogs and motor scooters, the protest continued to be peaceful as of midnight. I think there were about 30 arrests which isn't bad considering the size of the crowd and that the occupiers were there all day up until Midnight.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 2, 2012 10:22 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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What candidates did they get elected in the last elections?

Occupy Campaign does not sell anything, nor is it a political party.

http://takethesquare.net/2012/02/29/occupy-campaign-aims-to-bring-politics-back-to-their-base-to-the-neighborhood-and-the-street/

Occupy Campaign aims to bring politics back to their base: to the neighborhood and the street. We have no influence on many important decisions in our lives, and our current politics has taught us to accept this. Politics are reduced to casting your vote once every four years. Occupy Campaign argues that politics do not belong to politicians alone.

It wouldn't hurt for you to look beyond what you think you see in order to get a grasp of what Occupiers are about.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 2, 2012 11:13 AM   in response to: Shar M in response to: Shar M
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Are you also against ticker tape parades as a way of celebrating heroes ?
What about yearly St. Patricks Day Parade, the New Years Eve celebration in Time Square, The Annual Macy's Christmas Parade. These are all very messy occasions which require massive clean ups afterwards as well as added police protection and oh my, porta potties.

Our own American Revolution was a mess in another way but helped make us a free nation.

Attaining and maintaining freedom is a messy business but IMO worth it.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 1, 2012 11:41 AM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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If you have a lot of free time and high tolerance for concrete thinking, you might want to visit www.snoopes.com/politice/obama/birther/ineligible.asp Tax payer money in action!

I see by the heading something about Scopes and Obamas birth certificate.

When trying to verify something I prefer the following:

http://factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa/

I'm not sure what your stand is on this but it reads in part:

Summary
In June, the Obama campaign released a digitally scanned image of his birth certificate to quell speculative charges that he might not be a natural-born citizen. But the image prompted more blog-based skepticism about the document¿s authenticity. And recently, author Jerome Corsi, whose book attacks Obama, said in a TV interview that the birth certificate the campaign has is "fake."

We beg to differ. FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as "supporting documents" to this article. Our conclusion: Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said.

Now, back to Super Pacs if you will.
4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 1, 2012 12:25 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Excuse me...............................................My stand is that you CANNOT expect average citizens to be uninfluenced by even the most ridiculous of charges. I did not include factcheck as it was more evenly written...the charges in snopes continue, even though, as you indicated - and I concur - the facts have been proven (anyone who knows anything about history is aware that Hawaii is a state and was so at the time of the President's birth and that it only takes one parent who is a US citizen to confer citizenship on the offspring). You have also stated facts are presented as half truths. The half that is not true tends to linger on and on and on and develop its own life. But, if viewed not from the scratched surface and deeper, questions may be revealed; how many people actually do this.

If you watched the videos - which I question due to the lenght of the videos and your response - you would wonder just whom paid for the birthers attorney fees, the cost of printing up the volumes of "evidence", etc. I strongly suggest that there is a source of funds for this movement, just as the war on women and all the other side shows that distract from the real issues, or lack thereof.

I will be explicit: the Super PACs are not the only players and to focus solely on these activities is very short sighted. Little players are needed to advance the big guys agenda. And the more absurd the little guy is, the more attention is drawn to the issue; Joe the plumber is a good example. He was a "regular guy"; albeit not truthful, and gained a lot of attention. How did his message get out? Perhaps another little guy trying to move up the ranks.

Change comes one person at a time, not by banging the top and wishing that some will fall down.

Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 1, 2012 3:57 PM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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Regarding Joe the Plumber who doesn't have a plumbers license and expressed a desire to buy his bosses business tho the boss has stated he does not wish to sell his business. Last job I heard of is he's a motivational speaker.
After his initial approach to Obama,
he was taken up by then Republican Candidate McCain to help craft his message and he used Joes name as very near a basis for his running . Had there not been forces such as McCain and the Press, I doubt we'd know anymore about Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher the "un plumber".

My point is, others have questioned Obama but have not risen to the "prominence " of Joe. If they had McCain, the press, various T.V. shows, backing IMO they would be as well known as Joe the unplumber.

He is now running for office and has pages being backed by some college outfit as well as a few others.
Right place right time but big cheeses are responsible for his notoriety.

4Annie

Posts: 882
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 1, 2012 10:20 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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And, that was my point...big backers.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 2, 2012 6:25 AM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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And, that was my point...big backers.

Oh.
Turtletoes2


Posts: 4,290
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 1, 2012 4:46 PM   in response to: 4Annie in response to: 4Annie
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Change comes one person at a time, not by banging the top and wishing that some will fall down

I wish this were true and as far as the Occupiers I say God Bless them and more power to them. Maybe working top down and bottom up and the middle as well is the way to go. Don't ask me how.

I am again posting the super dupers who are funding some of the Super Pacs as well as donating personally as the Supremes decided was O.K.

http://www.iwatchnews.org/2012/04/26/8754/meet-super-donor-all-stars

jwalker1166

Posts: 533
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: Apr 30, 2012 9:52 PM   in response to: Turtletoes2 in response to: Turtletoes2
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Maybe the people will wake up and pay no attention to the baloney and lean to use reasoning and not be swayed
by the mudslinging. Na it will never happen.
wanderer


Posts: 5,074
Re: Super Pacs
Posted: May 1, 2012 7:40 AM   in response to: jwalker1166 in response to: jwalker1166
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it will happen - probably about the same time as big money is removed from the political system.

had to go to the credit union yesterday - today is the first of the month and is busy. so yesterday there were 2 people besides me at 9:30. tellers were chit chatting and having a good time. man next to me said to them to straighten up and get to work (everyone was cracking up) as HE was their employerr and they better hop to it, which made everyone laugh more. Suggested he tell the people in washington that. He said that Jesus will probably walk on earth before Washington gets their act together.

he probably is onto something there.

everyone left in a good mood.